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[V5] What rules you like and what do you not?

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  • Yep, V20 was a massive collection of rules - you’d most likely have to house rule to get the most out of. I don’t recall anybody ever playing the game without adapting it in some way although, to be fair, this is true of all the previous editions too. V5, in all honesty, is the only version of Vampire that I run it as written. Some may not like the implications of the rules, but for me they are the most well crafted and thematically direct rules. V20 didn’t take risks in it’s design, it just collated them and expected the audience to work out the rest for themselves - warts and all.

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    • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
      Yep, V20 was a massive collection of rules - you’d most likely have to house rule to get the most out of. I don’t recall anybody ever playing the game without adapting it in some way although, to be fair, this is true of all the previous editions too. V5, in all honesty, is the only version of Vampire that I run it as written. Some may not like the implications of the rules, but for me they are the most well crafted and thematically direct rules. V20 didn’t take risks in it’s design, it just collated them and expected the audience to work out the rest for themselves - warts and all.


      for what it's worth I didn't house rule v20...not that I was aware of, but may have assumed things worked one way when they actually didn't. Made way more Path rolls (conscience/instinct for example) than seems to be the norm, so not sure if that was people houseruling or me houseruling.

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      • Don't wanna get one-true-wayist on y'all but V20 works best with simple streamlining, because combat's between two and four times slower than it needs to be, and maybe a few balance changes to some rare disciplines. A way to earn humanity back without XP expenditure is also neccessary, and the exponential experience rates need to be fixed because they encourage way too many 1's and 4's at character creation. There's nothing else (worth noting) that really needs to be touched, and none of those changes really transform the themes of the game.

        V5 however; The way you handle a lot of the rules will determine if you get a diceless game or a comedy of errors, If you sail smoothly along unlife or face eternal tragedy. What kind of procedure character creation will be...

        V20 has great foundations; You can alter nothing or change a lot, but the castle will mostly serve the same purpose. V5 is a jenga tower. Any rule change will have a massive impact on the feel and fluff and the mechanics in response.


        V5 is not VTM

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        • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
          Don't wanna get one-true-wayist on y'all but V20 works best with simple streamlining, because combat's between two and four times slower than it needs to be, and maybe a few balance changes to some rare disciplines. A way to earn humanity back without XP expenditure is also neccessary, and the exponential experience rates need to be fixed because they encourage way too many 1's and 4's at character creation. There's nothing else (worth noting) that really needs to be touched, and none of those changes really transform the themes of the game.

          V5 however; The way you handle a lot of the rules will determine if you get a diceless game or a comedy of errors, If you sail smoothly along unlife or face eternal tragedy. What kind of procedure character creation will be...

          V20 has great foundations; You can alter nothing or change a lot, but the castle will mostly serve the same purpose. V5 is a jenga tower. Any rule change will have a massive impact on the feel and fluff and the mechanics in response.
          V20 was good but I feel like it was mostly 99% Revised because that was what they were doing with an Anniversary Edition.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            V20 was good but I feel like it was mostly 99% Revised because that was what they were doing with an Anniversary Edition.
            Pretty much, evolution not revolution. Anniversary Editions should be that IMHO, tidy up and clarify what went before.

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            • There's no point rehashing specifics that others have already covered. In general, I really liked all the work they put into the thematic focus - Resonance, Memoriam, Predator Types, Blood Potency, Hunger (with caveats), consolidation of Disciplines so they became specifically vampiric powers rather than spell colleges.I liked the increased variability and flexibility of the lower-level Disciplines.

              Touchstones would have been on that list, but I passionately loathe the mandatory link to Convictions, which makes no sense without resorting to flimsy cop-outs about vampires having "alien psychology". (If I want to play a character with an alien psychology, Modiphius does an excellent Star Trek game, and I don't want to play a character with such a weak sense of self in any game).

              The Humanity revisions can be abused, but they allow the flexibility to create good-guy soldiers or humane thieves which was absent in the old system.A definite plus.

              Capping all Attributes at 5 - ho-hum. I disliked the god-like nature of the ancients in the former editions, which reached its nadir with Ravnos laughing in the face of a nuclear blast and, presumably, dropping ice-cubes down the vest of fear. By and large, I like this change. On the other hand, a creature that's survived several thousand years ought to be pretty impressive, and I'm in two minds as to whether the new rules go far enough in that direction.

              The Requiem-isation of the Attributes weakens backwards compatibility, but I do think they're better Attributes. Also a plus.

              Merits and Flaws coherently arranged on a sliding scale so the one becomes the flipside of the other - very nice, very logical. (Although - Mawla instead of Mentor? What on earth was the point of that?)

              Coterie creation rules and relationship charts - good, though most experienced groups won't need it.

              A minor detail, but the inability of vampires to, ahem, "perform", makes a nonsense of the Siren Predator Type. Lack of joined-up thinking there, I feel. I suspect that history will repeat itself, and the "No Sex Please, We're British... er, Vampires" rule will be dropped just as it was after the first and second editions.

              Certain things, like the constant Hunger which you can only fully slake by killing someone, seem designed to push you towards being Evil (TM), albeit in a suitably woke and definitely non-Nazi fashion...

              Hunter: "You are blood-sucking mass murderer!"
              Vampire: "Yes, but I never choose my victims on the basis of gender, ethnicity or sexual orientation. Also, I recycle"
              Hunter: "Oh, sorry. I assumed that because you were dead and you were back, you'd be voting Republican"
              Vampire: "Perish the thought. Can I go now?"

              Oh, dear... however, it's easy enough to avoid wallowing in angst if you don't want to. V5 has its flaws, but I find much more in it to like than dislike. I'm looking forward to getting Chicago V5 for my birthday and I'm very excited about Cults of the Blood Gods and Fall of London.

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              • Originally posted by JezMiller View Post

                A minor detail, but the inability of vampires to, ahem, "perform", makes a nonsense of the Siren Predator Type. Lack of joined-up thinking there, I feel. I suspect that history will repeat itself, and the "No Sex Please, We're British... er, Vampires" rule will be dropped just as it was after the first and second editions.
                Unless I completely read this wrong, Eat Food and sex is now automatic when you activate the Blush of Life. Which puts all the human-like qualities under one single skill all Kindred possess.

                Since a Rouse check is not an automatic point of Hunger, it's a perfectly valid hunting technique.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • Yeah, there's no way I'm using those sex rules, if only because I am a Necroscope guy, and therefore houserule them more Thrashing Dragon, especially as they lose humanity.
                  Last edited by CajunKhan; 02-14-2020, 07:50 PM.

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                  • Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
                    Yeah, there's no way I'm using those sex rules, if only because I am a Necroscope guy, and therefore houserule them more Thrashing Dragon, especially as they lose humanity.
                    How did Necroscope handle it?


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • Like I said, they're Thrashing Dragon types, especially those that have completely surrendered their humanity to their infestation.

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                      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                        V20 was good but I feel like it was mostly 99% Revised because that was what they were doing with an Anniversary Edition.
                        Yep, V20 was very much an expanded version of VRev - developed by Justin Achilli - rather than a development from 1st or 2nd Edition V: TM directly. Mark Rein-Hagen’s involvement on V5 is what ties it more to the original editions in terms of design intent, at least.

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                        • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                          Yep, V20 was very much an expanded version of VRev - developed by Justin Achilli - rather than a development from 1st or 2nd Edition V: TM directly. Mark Rein-Hagen’s involvement on V5 is what ties it more to the original editions in terms of design intent, at least.
                          But didn't Mark said he was not involved in v5 decisions in his facebook page after the Chechenya incident? O_O

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                          • Originally posted by blailton View Post

                            But didn't Mark said he was not involved in v5 decisions in his facebook page after the Chechenya incident? O_O
                            What I recall about Mark’s involvement on Facebook was that he was being hassled for days about his involvement in V5 and, I think, being directly accused of all sorts by fanatical aggressors. Whether he was involved with the Chechnya chapter in the Camarilla book or not doesn’t change the fact that he was an important part of the team that designed and developed V5 - and a credited one also. The tone of V5 matches the tone he approached the 1st edition with.

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                            • Originally posted by blailton View Post

                              But didn't Mark said he was not involved in v5 decisions in his facebook page after the Chechenya incident? O_O

                              He basically got invited in as an attempt to link V5 with past VtM especially 1st Ed and therefore help lend legitimacy to V5 as a legacy of original VtM.

                              He's since said that he regrets his involvement with the entire thing, Part of that is obviously the Chechnya thing but it seems he also did not get along with a number of folks at Paradox White Wolf.

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                              • Originally posted by Damian May View Post


                                He basically got invited in as an attempt to link V5 with past VtM especially 1st Ed and therefore help lend legitimacy to V5 as a legacy of original VtM.

                                He's since said that he regrets his involvement with the entire thing, Part of that is obviously the Chechnya thing but it seems he also did not get along with a number of folks at Paradox White Wolf.
                                I’m going to take that as second hand data, considering I have directly communicated with him about V5, and his going to great lengths to defend V5 online - he helped with forming an online petition defending V5, for example. His regret is most likely to do with the hassle he got from V5 haters, not because of V5 itself. As much as anything else, I doubt he would have expected to front against the claim that chapters like the Chechnya chapter were his doing, or that he was promoting paedophilia, or that he was Alt.Right. Basically, he got hounded.

                                And V5 does have legitimacy as part of the legacy of the original VtM, whether haters like it or not.
                                Last edited by Trippy; 02-14-2020, 11:05 PM.

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