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[V5] What rules you like and what do you not?

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  • Originally posted by Trippy View Post

    They are measurably inconsequential.

    no. they are not, to be inconsequential they would have to achieve nothing, they achieve telling the story, the rules , as they should, supporting the narrative.

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    • Originally posted by Trippy View Post



      And, as an aside, if a person with Strength 3 Dexterity 2 and Stamina 2, with Melee 1 attacks another person with Strength 2, Dexterity 4 and Stamina 3, Brawl 2 - with a knife - can you tell me what the probability of the first knife blow being lethal is?


      Not very high, nor should it be, people can take a ridiculous amount of killing sometimes. Especially if they are aware of the attack, but even when not. If the target is aware of the attack, you are probably looking at defensive injuries, or with someone that well coordinated naturally, a straight out evade, parry or block. If you want to get further into it than V20 does, you could get into what clothes people are wearing, where the attack is aimed, cut vs thrust etc etc. (also humans don't get to soak lethal)
      Last edited by Taggie; 02-15-2020, 06:10 PM.

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      • Originally posted by Taggie View Post


        no. they are not, to be inconsequential they would have to achieve nothing, they achieve telling the story, the rules , as they should, supporting the narrative.
        Rolling five successes which could then be converted to no successes on the damage roll means the dice rolled initially are literally inconsequential. They achieve nothing.

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        • Originally posted by Taggie View Post
          Not very high, nor should it be, people can take a ridiculous amount of killing sometimes. Especially if they are aware of the attack, but even when not. If the target is aware of the attack, you are probably looking at defensive injuries, or with someone that well coordinated naturally, a straight out evade, parry or block. If you want to get further into it than V20 does, you could get into what clothes people are wearing, where the attack is aimed, cut vs thrust etc etc. (also humans don't get to soak lethal)
          I didn’t ask for your opinion. I asked for the probability - what is it?

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          • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
            Rolling five successes which could then be converted to no successes on the damage roll means the dice rolled initially are literally inconsequential. They achieve nothing.

            Your story telling must really suck, you launched the perfect strike, but..got caught on clothes, slipped, misaligned the edge..what ever it did nothing, the consequence is narrative, supported by rules.

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            • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
              I didn’t ask for your opinion. I asked for the probability - what is it?


              Since I don't care, you can supply the numbers, which will prove...exactly nothing. Or as a counter point, provide me the chances of a V5 combat giving full weight to an hour long grinding slug fest between supernaturals, ripping and tearing into each other as the night passes in a blur of fangs, as hundreds of strikes are exchanged, parried, evaded, soaked, healed.
              Last edited by Taggie; 02-15-2020, 06:41 PM.

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              • Taggie

                You're missing out on a great joke here:

                The odds are 100%. Knife damage is always lethal in VtM.

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                • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  [USER="25011"]Taggie[/USER
                  You're missing out on a great joke here:

                  The odds are 100%. Knife damage is always lethal in VtM.
                  The joke being that lethal damage rarely is, of course.

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                  • Originally posted by Taggie View Post



                    Since I don't care, you can supply the numbers, which will prove...exactly nothing. Or as a counter point, provide me the chances of a V5 combat giving full weight to an hour long grinding slug fest between supernaturals, ripping and tearing into each other as the night passes in a blur of fangs, as hundreds of strikes are exchanged, parried, evaded, soaked, healed.
                    Well you can work it out, with a calculator and a bit of time, but the broader aspect of it is that it’s not very intuitive, is it? It’s called ‘lethal’, but in any given combat It’s not something that the combatants really know what the likelihood is.

                    So, given that we have established that the system involves an exponential increase in the number of dice rolled, often for no consequence, that no participant can intuitively guess the likelihood of success, and the sheer burden of book keeping and work required by the ST to coordinate it at the table, what on earth makes you think this is a good game system?
                    Last edited by Trippy; 02-15-2020, 07:43 PM.

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                    • Originally posted by Taggie View Post


                      Your story telling must really suck, you launched the perfect strike, but..got caught on clothes, slipped, misaligned the edge..what ever it did nothing, the consequence is narrative, supported by rules.
                      Ah, we aren’t being subjective here. This is just a mathematical analysis. Rolling five successes and then getting nothing ultimately from the damage roll renders the first as inconsequential, by definition. How a storyteller might handle this outcome is a different question. Answer the first, and stop making straw man defences.
                      Last edited by Trippy; 02-15-2020, 07:51 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                        Ah, we aren’t being subjective here. This is just a mathematical analysis. Rolling five successes and then getting nothing ultimately from the damage roll renders the first as inconsequential, by definition. How a storyteller might handle this outcome is a different question. Answer the first, and stop making straw man defences.

                        But your the one who mentioned objective measures, then failed to support them. I Claimed I like and enjoy the system, which is a subjective claim. Back up your claim that it is objectively bad, stop trying to turn a standard of proof onto me that I have not claimed to have. Also that roll is not inconsequential, it backs narrative with rules, something V5 does not achieve, in my view.

                        You have to Objectively prove your thesis that it is a bad system, so far all you are doing is showing that it involves more dice rolls.

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                        • Originally posted by Taggie View Post


                          But your the one who mentioned objective measures, then failed to support them. I Claimed I like and enjoy the system, which is a subjective claim. Back up your claim that it is objectively bad, stop trying to turn a standard of proof onto me that I have not claimed to have. Also that roll is not inconsequential, it backs narrative with rules, something V5 does not achieve, in my view.

                          You have to Objectively prove your thesis that it is a bad system, so far all you are doing is showing that it involves more dice rolls.
                          I have supported the point of objectivity, with examples, and your just being obtuse about it. You actually failed to recognize the difference between an observation and an opinion before too. So, having established that you don’t know what you are talking about, lets try again.

                          As stated before, when somebody rolls five successes on an attack and then, through the resultant damage and soak rolls, ends up with nothing, then the initial roll is inconsequential. There is no opinion about this - it is objectively the case. And it’s not as if this sort of thing is particularly unusual, either. Statistically, the requirement for opposed rolls on both attack/defense as well as damage/soak means that the probability of making consequential rolls in combat is diminished by way of comparison with other sub-systems in the game (as well as other game systems). It is not an unusual event for a round of combat to happen in V20 where nothing of dramatic substance occurs as an outcome, despite a deluge of dice hitting the table. This is, considering the nominal goals of the system design, an objective failure.
                          Last edited by Trippy; 02-15-2020, 08:20 PM.

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                          • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                            I have supported the point of objectivity, with examples, and your just being obtuse about it. You actually failed to recognize the difference between an observation and an opinion before too. So, having established that you don’t know what you are talking about, lets try again.

                            As stated before, when somebody rolls five successes on an attack and then, through the resultant damage and soak rolls, ends up with nothing, then the initial roll is inconsequential. There is no opinion about this - it is objectively the case. And it’s not as if this sort of thing is particularly unusual, either. Statistically, the retirement for opposed rolls on both attack/defense as well as damage/soak means that the probability of making consequential rolls in combat is diminished by way of comparison with other sub-systems in the game (as well as other game systems). It is not an unusual event for a round of combat to occur in V20 where nothing of substance occurs as an outcome despite a deluge of of dice hitting the table. This is, considering the nominal goals of the system design, an objective failure.
                            Again, you have not provided anything but opinion and anecdote, then tried to brow beat into accepting you claim that those are objective, and while doing so have failed to show that even if true that would be a bad outcome. It is not unusual in real life for a few seconds of combat to achieve nothing, something that V20 reflects, not as well as a more simulationist system, but it actually does it, that is not a failure, despite your unsupported claim that it is. I can think of other systems where rounds coming out a wash happens between roughly equal combatants, (Eclipse Phase, some Shadow Run Editions, Cyber Punk, for instance), that would in fact be the point, it makes for meaningful duels, where going in like a walking threshing machine doesn't work, could V20 do it better, ofc, but it still fails the Objective test, for being bad.

                            Offer actual objective evidence, you have failed to do so, by setting the bar so high, for yourself. I don't think it is possible for a WW game, to be objectively bad, it would have to be nonfunctional, and some indie games meet that bar.

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                            • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                              Again, you have not provided anything but opinion and anecdote.
                              Stop bullshitting and address the point raised. It’s not an anecdote (again, you don’t appear to understand what these words mean), it is an example, and not a statistically insignificant one either.

                              When somebody rolls five successes, and then ends up getting nothing due to the follow-on damage/soak roll, is this not an example of an inconsequential roll? Yes or no?

                              When you except the fact of the matter, then get back to me.
                              Last edited by Trippy; 02-15-2020, 08:28 PM.

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                              • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                                remove damage/soak rolls and just take half. optionally remove declare-actions phase. result; a fast and better combat system than v5.

                                I really, really like how down and gritty you can get with VTM. being able to describe your move and having mechanics relate rather than just 'i attack' is great. v5 is abstract and loses this
                                …didn't you literally just say one page ago that V20 was perfect as written and didn't need house-ruling?

                                This is basically how I run it when I do V20 (one roll per attack, like how CofD does it), but the V20 combat system as written is one of the things I like least about it. It makes me want to claw my eyes out as ST. I think it's overall one of the weaker parts of the game as a whole.

                                V5 combat still isn't perfect (social combat in particular needs a serious overhaul), but it's a whole lot less painful, in my experience. World of Darkness isn't D&D and never was, and taking more of the spotlight off combat minutiae is a nice change.

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