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[V5] What rules you like and what do you not?

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  • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
    Stop bullshitting and address the point raised. It’s not an anecdote (again, you don’t appear to understand what these words mean), it is an example, and not a statistically insignificant one either.

    When somebody rolls five successes, and then ends up getting nothing due to the follow-on damage/soak roll, is this not an example of an inconsequential roll? Yes or no?

    When you except the fact of the matter, then get back to me.
    No, it is not, the roll had consequence, it furthered narrative of the fight, as I have previously stated. It may have a consequence you didn't like, but it did have a consequence. But that the roll was inconsequential or not isn't the point, the point is you have still not shown that Objectively that would be a bad thing.

    An. Inconsequential roll would be a roll that pass or fail achieves nothing to further narrative , the roll you describe is not that.

    Your the one trying to claim that your opinion meets the standard of objectivity, and thus is impossible to dispute or debate, and anyone who disagrees is thus delusional, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof, to whit, you are claiming the same authority for v20 being bad as for Newtons Laws of Motion, or for Einsteins general relativity, you want to claim that standard, prove it to that standard.
    Last edited by Taggie; 02-16-2020, 05:28 AM.

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    • I once got to horrify a player with v20's shitty mechanics. They were weak and struggling to dash in the head of a secretary who'd witnessed a clear masquerade breach on the floor. Several times was the head shoved against the floor, several times this didn't result in mechanical damage. It was just savagery.

      On the otherhand, I once had an epic battle with a housecat. Not a ghoul. a regular housecat.


      V5 is not VTM

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      • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
        I once got to horrify a player with v20's shitty mechanics. They were weak and struggling to dash in the head of a secretary who'd witnessed a clear masquerade breach on the floor. Several times was the head shoved against the floor, several times this didn't result in mechanical damage. It was just savagery.

        On the otherhand, I once had an epic battle with a housecat. Not a ghoul. a regular housecat.
        I can just see the hunter cell now.

        "Alright, this one's an Assamite, so its gonna be extremely dangerous and you are going to have to be ready to cheese it the instant it spots you--"
        "Yeah, that's very nice and all, Cap, but you don't mean the vamp over there struggling to beat up the tortoise-shell, do you?"
        "Alright, looks like its handled. Time to hit the bar, fellas."

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        • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

          No, it is not, the roll had consequence, it furthered narrative of the fight, as I have previously stated. It may have a consequence you didn't like, but it did have a consequence. But that the roll was inconsequential or not isn't the point, the point is you have still not shown that Objectively that would be a bad thing.
          It has no consequence. You have made a bunch of dice rolls and they have achieved nothing. There is no ’narrative’ argument - if the dice rolled have no effective outcome.

          It is an objective fact that if you roll 5 successes on attack, which can then be nullified by subsequent damage/soak rolls to an absolute nothing, then the former roll is inconsequential. Like I say, get back to me when you can accept the fact of the matter. Till then, you may as well go on the ignore button as a peddler of foolish arguments.
          Last edited by Trippy; 02-16-2020, 05:50 AM.

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          • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
            It has no consequence. You have made a bunch of dice rolls and they have achieved nothing. There is no ’narrative’ argument - if the dice rolled have no effective outcome.

            It is an objective fact that if you roll 5 successes on attack, which can then be nullified by subsequent damage/soak rolls to an absolute nothing, then the former roll is inconsequential. Like I say, get back to me when you can accept the fact of the matter. Till then, you may as well go on the ignore button as a peddler of foolish arguments.

            And again, the only point of a game is narrative, stop claiming to be the final arbitrator of truth, to have the divine authority of the gaming deities to proclaim that nay one who doesn't like v5, and prefers v20 is a deranged maniac, is delusional, is arguing in bad faith as you have, on all those counts. In short stop calling me a mentally ill, lying sub human for not agreeing with you.


            The consequence of the roll was narrative, thus it had a consequence, and was not inconsequential. You can state a claim, but it is not objective fact with proof. You can dismiss counter argument and counter point and scream badwrongfun at the top of your lungs while throwing your toys far and wide, it still does not meet the test of being 'objectively bad'. Even if I grant, which I don't, that a null result is inconsequential, you STILL have not met the standards to prove your claim that it is 'objectively bad' The claim of objectivity is what is in dispute here, where is the proof? Where is the independent peer reviewed studies and standards to show what is 'bad'? If you claim objectivity meet your own damn standard. If you don't it becomes what it actually is: subjective opinion.
            Last edited by Taggie; 02-16-2020, 02:50 PM.

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            • Just so you know, he blocks you if you don't agree with him. That's the kind of behaviour that makes you want to disagree with him, sure, and indeed everytime he pulls this nonsense it discredits his side and their argument further, but you still can't have the discussion, because he's blocked you.

              Once they've stopped using reason, just accept that they've lost.
              Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 02-16-2020, 04:10 PM.


              V5 is not VTM

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              • The Chicago Folios have changed the rules regarding Loresheets, FYI. It's now more forgiving.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                  I once got to horrify a player with v20's shitty mechanics. They were weak and struggling to dash in the head of a secretary who'd witnessed a clear masquerade breach on the floor. Several times was the head shoved against the floor, several times this didn't result in mechanical damage. It was just savagery.

                  On the otherhand, I once had an epic battle with a housecat. Not a ghoul. a regular housecat.
                  Sounds about right for V20 combat. Fortunately, CofD's "subtract defense from pool, roll, successes plus weapon modifier are damage" slots in nicely; you just have to pick a difficulty (or I suppose you could use the defense stat as difficulty if you wanted to).

                  Sometime I might try porting V5's combat rules to V20; the main difference would be that you now roll to defend instead of just having a passive defense rating. I think it would work fairly well.

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                  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                    The Chicago Folios have changed the rules regarding Loresheets, FYI. It's now more forgiving.
                    Honestly I think that's an error in the Folios, since it doesn't present it as a change and it directly contradicts the errata to the corebook.

                    At least, I sincerely hope it's not an actual change. That would suck.

                    (The errata to the corebook say "you can only take one loresheet at chargen but can pick up more later if the plot leads to it", the Folios say "you can only take one loresheet at chargen and can never pick up more later unless you burn out your existing one".)

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                    • But you see... As someone who likes gritty, realistic combat, and who has some small appreciation for martial arts, it's really, really nice to fight by putting a person in a grapple, use leverage to make your strikes better, turning them and moving them to the ground, and then hammering their face in... It's satisfying to imagine your move, your next move, your opponents move, your response, your opponents next move... Especially in WoD where fangs, claws, alternative forms, pack tactics...

                      Karate kids, medieval enthusiasts and folk who like pro-wrestling seem to have a decent overlap with Vampire Players. Now sure, DnD players can have great fun with grapple and shove, but it's not on the level of Vampire, and V5 has gone even further to abstract combat and increase the distance between mechanics and fluff.


                      V5 is not VTM

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                        But you see... As someone who likes gritty, realistic combat, and who has some small appreciation for martial arts, it's really, really nice to fight by putting a person in a grapple, use leverage to make your strikes better, turning them and moving them to the ground, and then hammering their face in... It's satisfying to imagine your move, your next move, your opponents move, your response, your opponents next move... Especially in WoD where fangs, claws, alternative forms, pack tactics...

                        Karate kids, medieval enthusiasts and folk who like pro-wrestling seem to have a decent overlap with Vampire Players. Now sure, DnD players can have great fun with grapple and shove, but it's not on the level of Vampire, and V5 has gone even further to abstract combat and increase the distance between mechanics and fluff.
                        This, so much this. Give me throws, holds, mordhau, joint strikes,.give me actually thinking about fights, planning, gambling, stalemates and binds, that visceral, nasty, crunching attritional combat is so very satisfying. Does it roll loads of dice: yes, it is great fun because of it: hell yes.

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                        • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                          But you see... As someone who likes gritty, realistic combat, and who has some small appreciation for martial arts, it's really, really nice to fight by putting a person in a grapple, use leverage to make your strikes better, turning them and moving them to the ground, and then hammering their face in... It's satisfying to imagine your move, your next move, your opponents move, your response, your opponents next move... Especially in WoD where fangs, claws, alternative forms, pack tactics...

                          Karate kids, medieval enthusiasts and folk who like pro-wrestling seem to have a decent overlap with Vampire Players. Now sure, DnD players can have great fun with grapple and shove, but it's not on the level of Vampire, and V5 has gone even further to abstract combat and increase the distance between mechanics and fluff.
                          See, you could have rules for all that, cover a few different styles of fencing and the eight standard blade positions and how to parry different attacks from different positions, go into a few different martial art styles, talk about which kung fu maneuver is most effective against which sabre position…

                          …and end up with a rulebook twice the size of War and Peace, where combat involves looking up tables for all the different combinations of attack and defense. Sure, each player might need to only know the combinations involving their personal style, but the ST needs to know all of it to have their NPCs react intelligently. And that's hell for the ST. (For me as an ST, at least.)

                          Instead of doing that, V5 abstracts all that and leaves specific details up to the Storyteller. Whether you went for an attack in the 8-line or the 6-line and whether your opponent was ready with the right parry is represented by your Dexterity + Weaponry roll against their Dexterity + Weaponry roll. If you want to do something specific, like grapple someone and pin them down, I'd abstract that as Strength + Brawl versus Strength + Brawl, and so on. (And in fact that's what the optional grappling rules in the back of the corebook do.)

                          YMMV, obviously, and there's no One True Way to do it. But I've found running combat in V5 to be quite painless compared to V20, while allowing for creativity—if you go with the hypothetical book-of-all-combat-maneuvers-against-all-others, for example, what do you do when a player says "while the two of them are having their sword duel, I'm going to ram my car into him" and the book doesn't have stats on car-versus-rapier? In V5 I can just say "okay roll Wits + Drive versus Dexterity + Athletics, his pool is split because his focus is on the sword duel, if you win the car gives you a +5 damage modifier so he's probably ending up in torpor, if he wins he manages to dodge in time".

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                          • Combat moves are pretty intuitive. You don't need every move to have rules, just a framework to allow all kinds of moves, which can be done in a page or two. Apart from v5, the WoD rules have offered a fair framework.


                            V5 is not VTM

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                            • Originally posted by Draconis View Post

                              See, you could have rules for all that, cover a few different styles of fencing and the eight standard blade positions and how to parry different attacks from different positions, go into a few different martial art styles, talk about which kung fu maneuver is most effective against which sabre position…

                              …and end up with a rulebook twice the size of War and Peace, where combat involves looking up tables for all the different combinations of attack and defense. Sure, each player might need to only know the combinations involving their personal style, but the ST needs to know all of it to have their NPCs react intelligently. And that's hell for the ST. (For me as an ST, at least.)

                              Instead of doing that, V5 abstracts all that and leaves specific details up to the Storyteller. Whether you went for an attack in the 8-line or the 6-line and whether your opponent was ready with the right parry is represented by your Dexterity + Weaponry roll against their Dexterity + Weaponry roll. If you want to do something specific, like grapple someone and pin them down, I'd abstract that as Strength + Brawl versus Strength + Brawl, and so on. (And in fact that's what the optional grappling rules in the back of the corebook do.)

                              YMMV, obviously, and there's no One True Way to do it. But I've found running combat in V5 to be quite painless compared to V20, while allowing for creativity—if you go with the hypothetical book-of-all-combat-maneuvers-against-all-others, for example, what do you do when a player says "while the two of them are having their sword duel, I'm going to ram my car into him" and the book doesn't have stats on car-versus-rapier? In V5 I can just say "okay roll Wits + Drive versus Dexterity + Athletics, his pool is split because his focus is on the sword duel, if you win the car gives you a +5 damage modifier so he's probably ending up in torpor, if he wins he manages to dodge in time".
                              And find that level of abstraction immersion destroying. You don't need to go to George Silvers Paradox of Defence vs Mushasi Ninten Ichi Ryu levels of crunch (but I really want to see masters of those styles spar), but strikes, slashes, draw cuts, fish hooking, eye gouges, etc are qualitativly different things, and rules to reflect those differences are great to have, and let characters skilled in them have their moments to shine, as much as social engineering, blackmail, honey traps etc allow more 'face' type characters their glory, you find the other guys weakness and exploit it.

                              Anyone who cares Paradox of Defence is English Backsword, what would eventually form the basis of regimental broadsword and heavy sabre styles of the British military systems Ninten Ichi Ryu is Katana and Wakisashi or 2 Katana style dueling, both are still practiced.

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                              • I'd like to add that we've actually seen oWoD (or the 20th anniversary versions, anyway) do in-depth combat maneuvers, and relatively recently. M20 has multiple pages (not hundreds, just "multiple") devoted to martial arts, "dirty fighting", and Do combat maneuvers, in addition to standard maneuvers for melee and ranged combat. These did not fill an entire War and Peace sized book, and gives players/storytellers all the options they'd ever realistically need, unless you wanted to get really noodly and specialist.


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