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[V5] What rules you like and what do you not?

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  • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    Combat moves are pretty intuitive. You don't need every move to have rules, just a framework to allow all kinds of moves, which can be done in a page or two. Apart from v5, the WoD rules have offered a fair framework.
    Ahh, I misunderstood what you wanted. Something like pages 301-303 of the corebook except with more details and examples?

    I agree that would be useful and I hope the Player's Guide provides it. Those pages are good but I agree they're insufficient. I would just prefer, say, generalized information on Called Shots rather than huge tables of the different effects Called Shots can have.

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    • The arguments for and against the inclusion of a library of manoeuvres is moot when the core system is so poor. The V20 combat is neither gritty or realistic. It’s just an avalanche of dice rolling with no rhyme or reason in outcome, taking too long to make any conclusion. The same is true for previous editions too, but at least the combat system in V1 was only 5 pages long.

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      • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
        Combat moves are pretty intuitive. You don't need every move to have rules, just a framework to allow all kinds of moves, which can be done in a page or two. Apart from v5, the WoD rules have offered a fair framework.

        ... you mean the Maneuvers system, which is akin to the Exalted or Scion stunting system, which does exactly what you just described?

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        • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
          The arguments for and against the inclusion of a library of manoeuvres is moot when the core system is so poor. The V20 combat is neither gritty or realistic. It’s just an avalanche of dice rolling with no rhyme or reason in outcome, taking too long to make any conclusion. The same is true for previous editions too, but at least the combat system in V1 was only 5 pages long.


          Given how easy it is to modify by removing damage/soak rolls and the declare actions phase, I wouldn't say the core system is so poor, and that V5 had a good cure for it by scrapping it and making it light and disconnected. It's like a road had a pothole and the solution was to rip it all out and build a canal.


          V5 is not VTM

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          • Originally posted by elmerg View Post


            ... you mean the Maneuvers system, which is akin to the Exalted or Scion stunting system, which does exactly what you just described?
            If people can’t accept the rules as written, and are essentially borrowing rules or house-ruling, then it is tantamount to admitting that the rules are broken but people are just too stubborn to admit it’s a flaw.

            We’ve all house-ruled Vampire rules previously, V20 included if people are honest, but there wasn’t any official alternatives given in the game to deal with the flaws it had - especially in the combat system. For me, at least, V5 is the first edition I haven’t house-ruled at all. Whether people like the system as written is a subjective opinion, but objectively they do work as intended.

            You may not like V5 as a game but, in terms of the game it is intended to be, it is beautifully designed for purpose. It’s why it won the Origins award. V20, however, is a catalogue of rules collated from multiple editions with occasional tweaks - designed to provide a degree of nostalgic fan service, warts and all, and not rock the boat too much. It is not a particularly well designed game, with the flaws it has being long-standing.
            Last edited by Trippy; 02-17-2020, 04:28 AM.

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            • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
              If people can’t accept the rules as written, and are essentially borrowing rules or house-ruling, then it is tantamount to admitting that the rules are broken but people are just too stubborn to admit it’s a flaw.

              We’ve all house-ruled Vampire rules previously, V20 included if people are honest, but there wasn’t any official alternatives given in the game to deal with the flaws it had - especially in the combat system. For me, at least, V5 is the first edition I haven’t house-ruled at all. Whether people like the system as written is a subjective opinion, but objectively they do work as intended.

              You may not like V5 as a game but, in terms of the game it is intended to be, it is beautifully designed for purpose. It’s why it won the Origins award. V20, however, is a catalogue of rules collated from multiple editions with occasional tweaks - designed to provide a degree of nostalgic fan service, warts and all, and not rock the boat too much. It is not a particularly well designed game, with the flaws it has being long-standing.

              I don't think you mean to quote me. I like V5, and was pointing out that the Maneuvers system exists to what MyWifeIsScary was describing.

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              • Originally posted by elmerg View Post


                I don't think you mean to quote me. I like V5, and was pointing out that the Maneuvers system exists to what MyWifeIsScary was describing.
                Yeah, it was more the message in the message I was responding to. Sorry.

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                • What I'd like to see from a combat system
                  Take V20, Make the following changes.
                  (I've actually wrote proper rules down somewhere, but I'll give you the simple.

                  No damage/soak roles, just take half, unless it's a source of damage where this obviously doesn't work for (Fire, sunlight) Even then, don't count 1's or 10s.
                  I think declaring actions works for duels, but doesn't work for mass combat.

                  More emphasis on splitting dice.
                  I think (Celerity) aught to help you split dice. Splitting dice is fun, more balanced than complete other turns, and keeps everything within a turn.

                  Getting low amounts of successes leads to less than desirable results relative to what you were going for. The same system as the mild/moderate/phenomenal success system should better apply to combat.

                  - 1 success
                  General aiming: You hit the target's cover and the bullet does significantly less damage after going through it. /you hit high grade armour*/a limb.
                  Aiming for their eye: You hit the target's body, not the eye
                  2 success:
                  General aiming: You hit a limb, cover slightly interferes with your bullet,
                  Aiming for the eye: You hit the head
                  3 success
                  as expected
                  4 success
                  general- you hit your target in a better location like the head or the heart. You avoided armour or hit lighter protection.
                  Aiming for the eye- the angle is great and you do plenty of damage to things around/behind the eye as well as the eye.
                  5 successes
                  General- You hit the guy in the eye.
                  Aiming for the Eye- The angle is absolutely perfect and, assuming the opponent's too tough to instantly kill with your weapon or get stunned, the target loses part of their mind.

                  Melee/Brawl:

                  Targeted shots.
                  Targeted shots towards large parts of the body in melee should be easier, because it is in reality.

                  Grappling rules
                  -Rules for using one hand to get leverage on the opponent. IE I win the grapple by this many successes, I have this much extra dice over you/You lose this much dice. I can use my other arm to use my knife and stab you.

                  -More options for putting people on the ground (Shove for Str+Brawl, Trip for Dex+brawl in a grapple) (Note: Fortitude should help you stay standing, potence should help you knock down)

                  -Maybe some counters/disarm rules.

                  -Striking difficulty.
                  It would be nice to have some dynamism here. Like, a roundhouse kick is not harder to aim (unless you're going for a very specfic target) but it is easier to dodge.



                  I really don't think we need pages of special moves, just the fundamentals. Everything else can be gauged by the storyteller.

                  Now, for guns:

                  Aiming; Get rid of the scope rule, just have it give an increase relative to your perception/firearms.

                  Full auto- needs a revamp.

                  Special rules
                  -I really like 'Same damn spot' from Hunters Hunted.
                  -Fighting multiple opponent penalties aren't especially realistic, and tough figures (vampires, werewolves, people on drugs) should definetly have an 'abandon all defence, just attack' mode.
                  -Getting a bonus to attack from behind is silly. The defender could get a bonus difficulty to dodge, sure, but a DnD rogue's 'sneak attack' isn't a real thing.

                  Armour rules
                  No dex penalties, unless you're going full ned-kelly or wearing something very ill fitting.


                  Class 1/2: 1-4 dice. Flexible, can cover the whole body. You can wear over your armpits and other joints without dex penalty. +3 to avoid if you're wearing a full suit .
                  Class 4/5: 5-8 dice. Semi flexible, +2 to avoid if you're wearing a full suit and aren't overdoing it. Wearing over joints would be a dex penalty. Rifles halve the soak value.
                  Class 5/6: A balistic plate on your chest/back. When someone shoots or swings at your general area with one success, Treat as a miss, unless they've got a really big gun or a lot of potence. Steel version works for all trauma, ceramic only works a couple of times for bullets. Treat as 12/14 dice if neccessary. Maybe if you've got a lot of potence you could wear a full suit. If you're wearing normally, you only hit the plate if you get low successes to hit or you try to shoot through it (I aim for his heart!)

                  You're more than welcome to wear multiple armours to cover different areas, but they don't stack, only the best applies. VTM doesn't seem to clarify this, and it needs saying.

                  You really, really don't need a big list of special cool moves (This is far more a werewolf issue than a vampire one) unless of course we're talking special, vampire martial arts with unusual effects (like that move to attack the heart area and cause lots of bleeding)


                  I think you could throw this all in... maybe using two-four pages? If we don't include weapon tables?




                  Now, If I wanted to houserule V5 to be more visceral/simulationist I would need to...
                  Anyone got any ideas other than scrap everything?


                  V5 is not VTM

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    Now, If I wanted to houserule V5 to be more visceral/simulationist I would need to...
                    Anyone got any ideas other than scrap everything?
                    Just apply the rules as written, utilising some of the advanced options provided? It fixes all the problems with the V20 combat you’ve highlighted above. Glad to see you admitting V20 combat could do with fixing.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                      Just apply the rules as written, utilising some of the advanced options provided? It fixes all the problems with the V20 combat you’ve highlighted above. Glad to see you admitting V20 combat could do with fixing.


                      You asked me in another thread what a combat round with 10 opposed rolls could achieve, so here is my answer: It could get really nuts and bolts simulationist on every block, strike, counter, as well as on psychological aspects of combat, stlyistic quirks of the schools of martial arts used, situational awareness, really removing as much abstraction as possible from combat, you could have something that mapped out, in exquisite detail exactly what happened each and every pass, including mentally, to both combatants. That could be amazing, if you wanted that level of detail. I think that would be to far for me, but I can absolutely see why that level of detail, tactics and planning could appeal.

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                      • Originally posted by Taggie View Post
                        You asked me in another thread what a combat round with 10 opposed rolls could achieve, so here is my answer: It could get really nuts and bolts simulationist on every block, strike, counter, as well as on psychological aspects of combat, stlyistic quirks of the schools of martial arts used, situational awareness, really removing as much abstraction as possible from combat, you could have something that mapped out, in exquisite detail exactly what happened each and every pass, including mentally, to both combatants. That could be amazing, if you wanted that level of detail. I think that would be to far for me, but I can absolutely see why that level of detail, tactics and planning could appeal.
                        If you actually believe that, then fair enough.

                        It doesn't address the mathematical problem, however,of the increased number of dice pools being rolled making the outcome more randomised, reducing the influence of game stats, being less likely of creating a game effect and being exponentially slower in practice. From what I can see, you are reducing simulation, not enhancing it.

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                        • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                          If you actually believe that, then fair enough.

                          It doesn't address the mathematical problem, however,of the increased number of dice pools being rolled making the outcome more randomised, reducing the influence of game stats, being less likely of creating a game effect and being exponentially slower in practice. From what I can see, you are reducing simulation, not enhancing it.


                          it beats the tar out of v5s 'get combat out the way as fast as possible with as little choice as possible so the real game can carry on' approach. It's not perfect by any means (nothing is or can be) But it certainly isn't bad. I just really, really hate 'narrative' style games, I have been roped into trying, fudge, fate and numenaria, and just cannot get into a story with that few rules,, and ones so loose, as a role play game, so seeing v5 heading that route, even if I liked everything else, would be a no, I would not be able to play it, I would be be constantly thinking that it was not my character affecting the world, but my improv skills convincing the ST, constantly concentrating not on the story, but on what next to do to get the result I wanted in game, dice rolls take that pressure away, put the focus back on the characters, and take RL personalities out of the game (as much as that is actually possible ofc) at least for me. As to increasing pool sizes randomising results more: you would probably be surprised exactly how deadly amateurs (so low pool characters) can be thru ignorance, BS and Bravado, a trained person can win harder, but an amateur can do something truly insane that works, because they don't know it's insane, If their was a way to combine that better, I would take it, but I like opposed rolls as a rules set, it makes things swingy, as rl is, with luck on both sides really mattering, it's a pretty good way of doing it, maybe going percentage based would have been a better way, but pools aren't a bad way.

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                          • Originally posted by Taggie View Post



                            it beats the tar out of v5s 'get combat out the way as fast as possible with as little choice as possible so the real game can carry on' approach. It's not perfect by any means (nothing is or can be) But it certainly isn't bad. I just really, really hate 'narrative' style games, I have been roped into trying, fudge, fate and numenaria, and just cannot get into a story with that few rules,, and ones so loose, as a role play game, so seeing v5 heading that route, even if I liked everything else, would be a no, I would not be able to play it, I would be be constantly thinking that it was not my character affecting the world, but my improv skills convincing the ST, constantly concentrating not on the story, but on what next to do to get the result I wanted in game, dice rolls take that pressure away, put the focus back on the characters, and take RL personalities out of the game (as much as that is actually possible ofc) at least for me. As to increasing pool sizes randomising results more: you would probably be surprised exactly how deadly amateurs (so low pool characters) can be thru ignorance, BS and Bravado, a trained person can win harder, but an amateur can do something truly insane that works, because they don't know it's insane, If their was a way to combine that better, I would take it, but I like opposed rolls as a rules set, it makes things swingy, as rl is, with luck on both sides really mattering, it's a pretty good way of doing it, maybe going percentage based would have been a better way, but pools aren't a bad way.
                            You are citing just one approach on offer in the V5 rules. There are advanced rules to add detail or tailor to suit taste included also.

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                            • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                              You are citing just one approach on offer in the V5 rules. There are advanced rules to add detail or tailor to suit taste included also.
                              I was referring to the advanced rules, the basic rules don't even earn being called a combat system.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                                I was referring to the advanced rules, the basic rules don't even earn being called a combat system.
                                Well, that is an opinion.

                                Another opinion is that the basic rules provide a quick and easy resolution system that is fitting to a genre that doesn’t necessarily put emphasis on physical conflict more than other aspects like social conflict.

                                The advanced rules in V5 provide optional rules to place more emphasis on different styles of play. You may not like them, but unlike V20, they do provide these options and the systems themselves are more robust, mathematically speaking to deliver results.

                                You may prefer to roll lots of dice, and more power to you. You can still choose to do so, and still be within the remit of the V5 rules. For others however, the V5 rules provide options that have not been officially available before, and deal with long standing issues that some have been crying out for decades for.
                                Last edited by Trippy; 02-27-2020, 04:59 AM.

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