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Do you actually have characters call themselves "antitribu" in game?

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  • Do you actually have characters call themselves "antitribu" in game?

    I've never liked the idea that Sabbat vampires would call themselves "antitribu". As far as they are concerned, they are the real clan and the Camarilla vampires are the antitribu. The very word seems like a holdover to the days when the Sabbat were more intended to be the vampire equivalent of nephandi or barabi than an actual sect of vampires with a different political system.

    Consequently, I never make characters say they are antitribu. Rather, they are simply whatever clan they are, and the other guys are "Cammies" or "Cammy-Gangrel" or "Cammy-Ventrue" or "Cammy-Malks" or whatever.

    Am I the only one who does this, or are there more of you?

  • #2
    It's the Camarilla Lasombra that aren't going to call themselves antitribu, cause they consider themselves the real clan. But the Sabbat antitribu do consider themselves separate from their main clan, and more importantly the Antediluvians. They're proud to be separate from their clan as long as it serves the Antes. Antitribu are the few proud rebels.

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    • #3
      Nah, I use it to emphasize the fact the Sabbat are a cult. They try to emphasize how much that their Clans don't matter and how they are actually a single group of people who are brothers as well as sisters in Caine. It also underscores what I love about the Sabbat in their hypocrisy because, of course, the Tzimisce and Lasombra have none of this. Plus, of course, there's exceptions there because the Panders are their own Clan and the Serpents of Light want NOTHING to do with being Followers of Set.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #4
        It depends, mostly I have characters call others antitribu, but some do for various reasons. Generally older vampies, and more often Anarchs than Sabbat.To me it makes more sense for a 200 year old Anarch Ventrue to refer to themselves as 'against the Clan' than it does for a 30 or 3000 year old Brujah Antitribu. The exception is Nosferatu, Nosferatu are never antitribu, if they do leave the Clan they'll refer to themselves as Caitiff (or Caitiff neé Nosferatu, or some other construction depending on the vampire in question). But declaring yourself Antitibu is incredibly rare, to me it makes mroe sense as an insult, with Vampires in the Camarilla calling their Sabbat counterparts antitribu and those in the Sabbat calling their Camarilla counterparts Antitribu (before V5 the Anarchs weren't powerful enough to be included in this, working as a Camarilla sub-sect in most cities).


        Blue is sarcasm.

        If I suggestion I make contradicts in-setting metaphysics please ignore me, I probably brought in scientific ideas.

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        • #5
          I don't have the Sabbat self-identify as antitribu. To me, that's a distinction their enemies make, as in "they are not of us." My Sabbat tend to look at themselves as vampires first, Sabbat second, and their clan as distant a concern as who they were in their mortal lives. Of course, certain clans are an exception to this, if their status is somehow important to the scene, setting, or personality of the individual vampire.

          This may also have something to do with my game: I'm running a V5 chronicle in Detroit after the majority of the Sabbat left for the Gehenna crusade. The Sabbat licks who are left are more likely to identify with the pack than any larger movement. They also don't know about their clan loyalties, as both the Camarilla and the Anarchs are now making a play for their territory. In this city sect allegiance is vastly more important than anything else, including clan.

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          • #6
            I have the antitribu (including the ravnos) consider themselves antitribu...except for the malks (cause malks)
            and I have lasombra/tzimisce strengthen that notion

            their existence is defined by their opposition to the main clan, regardless of their stance on tradition,
            while the lasombra/tzimisce strengthen the distinction by reminding the antitribu their persistent failure in the face of their own success at earning their legitimacy

            but the distinction won't come out at every mention of clan,
            if you ask, say, a toreador antitribu their clan, they'll just say "toreador" without the distinction,
            if they do mention the distinction, it would show a desperate desire to not be confused with the camarilla ones (which imo, is worse than actually being confused for one of them)

            if you ask a lasombra about that same toreador anti,
            they'll either answer "toreador" or "toreador antitribu" depending on whether or not they want to be limped in with them,
            not bringing up the distinction means they treat them with respect or consider them as equals,
            while bringing up the distinction means that they still consider them second rate

            how individuals handle the distinction has an impact,
            if an antitribu are unshaken by the label (even when brought up as an insult), they admit their circumstance but they also make a show of strength and show that they're not intimidated by appropriating the label and challenging the offender to back up their insult,

            if an antitribu expresses offense at the label and back it up with strength or otherwise (like an elder tearing the arm of the offender), it's a clear show of strength and that the offender is in no place to determine what that antitribu is or isn't, or even appropriating the label

            now if that antitribu shows offense without backing it up, they'll just get mocked or boycotted for their show of weakness


            -

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            • #7
              I don't even use the term in my games -- at all. I've never liked it.

              A Toreador is a Toreador, no matter which sect they support.

              The only expectation of sect membership is for Lasombra and Tzimisce (both of whom have over 95% Sabbat membership). If there were a non-Sabbat Lasombra or Tzimisce, the term that would be used in my games is probably something along the lines of "traitor" or "scum-sucking Camarilla-loving turncoat".

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              • #8
                Hmmm. Never thought about this. Plus I never actually played a Sabbat character.


                The die is cast.

                Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                • #9
                  The Sabbat are varied, having a multitude of factions and schools of thought on any subject you can think of. Ergo, the value of the label "Antitribu" likely comes down to personal preference of individual Cainites, and is probably the subject of fierce debate. Some consider it the height of insult, while others consider it insulting to NOT be called Antitribu ("How dare you imply I'm one of those mewling kittens that suckle at the teats of the Antedeluvians! I CALL MONOMANCY!"). Others could not care less, because they think of themselves as Cainites - literally, the children of Caine - first and foremost, or simply have better things to worry about.

                  Trying to make broad generalizations about a sect as fractious as the Sabbat is a fruitless effort.
                  Last edited by Bluecho; 02-01-2020, 01:36 AM.


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
                    I've never liked the idea that Sabbat vampires would call themselves "antitribu". As far as they are concerned, they are the real clan and the Camarilla vampires are the antitribu. The very word seems like a holdover to the days when the Sabbat were more intended to be the vampire equivalent of nephandi or barabi than an actual sect of vampires with a different political system.
                    That's a weird thing to say when the term antitribu was introduced in the same book that first detailed the Sabbat as an actual sect of vampires with a different political system.

                    The idea that the Sabbat would consider themselves the "real clans" doesn't make a lick of sense when the entire point of the Sabbat is to be against all non-Sabbat vampires and especially the Antediluvians. Saying you're a Toreador implies that you are proud of your lineage that dates all the way back to Arikel; saying you're a Toreador antitribu implies that you want to wipe out all other Toreador and eat the clan founder. Only then would you call yourself the "real" Toreador, simply because there would be no one else left to contest your claim. The Lasombra and Tzimisce killed their clan founders (in the original lore, before the endless revisions introduced by later writers), so of course they get to brand the disparate remnants of non-Sabbat Lasombra and Tzimisce anything they want ("don't exist" and "the old clan," respectively).

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                    • #11
                      Does clan matter at all for your average sabbat?

                      Barring the 10% of the sabbat members who have been embraced in a traditional style to serve as agents of Sabbat elders I highly doubt that your average shovelhead has something similar to a clan culture or structure as the vinculum subsumes it and all the culture they need is the zeal of the sword of caine.

                      Heck even Caitiff have more clan structure around the figure of Pander (would have been interesting if they decided to go anarch).
                      Last edited by Leandro16; 02-01-2020, 10:23 AM.


                      Hunger pool

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                      • #12
                        I talked to somebody who actually plays a Sabbat vampire last night and she said her character introduces herself as “City Gangrel of the Sword of Caine” when she wants people to know she’s antitribu and just “Gangrel” when she doesn’t.


                        The die is cast.

                        Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                        • #13
                          In my games when I have Sabbat introduce themselves to each other (after the appropriate signs and maybe a handshake to ensure they *are* Sabbat) they say "I am Sabbatty McSabbatface, antitribu to [insert clan, probably Malk in this case]". I think it brings to the fore how the Sabbat's whole culture is they are against the clans and their elders. They see themselves as the true Anarchs who didn't chicken out at the Convention of Thorns. But that Cainite pride is still there, and clans are still a useful tool to organize people around you. The Guide to the Sabbat makes numerous references to this or that antitrubu clan being aligned with the Lasombra or Tzimisce, or this or that clan is rising in prominence. So I don't think they've let go of the idea of clans entirely. Thus using the word antitribu strikes a good balance.

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                          • #14
                            I've always took it that the "antitribu" designation was in part a measure of defiance on the idea that they were part of any clan that is still "enslaved" by its antedeluvian. Thus, the Sabbat Lasombra and Tzimisce aren't antitribu because they have "liberated" their clans. The other clans have not yet, so they consider themselves antitribu. Once they successfully slay their antedeluvians, then they'd just say they were clans like the Lasombra and Tzimisce.

                            Granted, that is 90% or more head canon, but it's what I've been using since the first Sabbat players handbook.

                            Now I admit, this isn't entirely consistent. One of the big points about the Ventrue's leadership of vampire society in general is that their antedeluvian is destroyed (and quite early on), and thus that clan alone was considered to be much freer in their actions than other clans who were being manipulated by their antedeluvians. How well that is actually believed in current times is debateable, but it is old canon that this was the historical view.

                            Of course, that has to really piss the Sabbat off. So I suspect the sect completely denies this is the case and spout out propaganda this is the exact opposite of reality (and who knows, this could be in any specific chronicle). So even the Sabbat Ventrue considers themselves to be "antitribu".

                            Of course since this can be a mouthful to say, I expect most Sabbat to simply not say "antitribu" and just their clan name for sheer convenience. But when the distinction matters, they say it.

                            No one has ever questioned that in my chronicles (perhaps because I only run Camarilla/Anarch games) so it's never been stated in my games.

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                            • #15
                              I think some clans would wear the "anti-clan" designation as a badge of pride. "Yeah, those guys in the Camarilla are the main clan who do what the elders want and are going to be dinner. We're not dumb like them." Others wouldn't care, and others would consider themselves the "main" clan. So I guess it just depends.

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