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Mithras stats in Fall of London

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  • #31
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    I think there's a difference between an Elder versus a thing older than organized religion.

    Ur-Shulgi is a plot device.

    Lodin is a character you can stake and decapitate.
    I agree with this to be honest. I still think the game failed separating ancient vampire from players in power level but they could have just said Helena was a force of nature rather than making her so killable with her new stats. I mean you couldn't really do much to Mithras with his 8 or 9 Presence and Ironclad Command. You were basically powerless so to give him fake elder stats now is counter productive in defending your game design.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
      VTR underpowered? In 1ED I would say yes becuase they tried to go back to street levels reduce elders with the Fog of Eternity but nobody liked that and the devolopers actually changed that in the late 1ED and 2ED
      This, especially as in Requiem 2e Blood Potency just determines the highest level you can increase a trait to, losing Blood Potency doesn't mean you'll lose your high traits. Requiem also has some brutally efficient Disciplines and Devotions, the physicals retained the simplicity of pre-V5 Masquerade's physicals while adding in new tricks, Auspex 2 got a very nice streamlining to 'you can ask a bunch of questions and the Beast answers', and Nightmare is vampiric illusionism done right. Some of the five dot Requiem powers are insane as well, the ability to use Obfuscate on everything within an area the rough size of a mansion or the ability to force everybody to make a check to enter your domain and being able to snatch the senses of animals within it are simply amazing.

      Then you get to Requiem Methuselahs, who as you pointed out get weird and very, very powerful, to the point where they take over the Antediluvian spot in Requiem. Although like a lot of Requiem they can be shrouded in myth partially because who would intentionally try to deal with that stuff? Then again Dracula is just as weird despite not being a Meth, because he has so many dots in Coils and might even have sired childer of multiple clans.

      Requiem 2e actually boosted your basic kindred into being potentially more powerful than a V20 masquerade kindred was, while V5 brought kindred back down to the point where mortals became a bigger threat (as shown by the overarching villainous factions of the Strix and the Second Inquisition). Requiem elders don't need 6+ stats to be able to be practically unbeatable, although they'll happily take them as well, and can potentially be striahgt up better than you could hope to be while being Blood Potency 1.


      Blue is sarcasm.

      If I suggestion I make contradicts in-setting metaphysics please ignore me, I probably brought in scientific ideas.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Vamps Like Us View Post

        I agree with this to be honest. I still think the game failed separating ancient vampire from players in power level but they could have just said Helena was a force of nature rather than making her so killable with her new stats. I mean you couldn't really do much to Mithras with his 8 or 9 Presence and Ironclad Command. You were basically powerless so to give him fake elder stats now is counter productive in defending your game design.
        Notably, a major part of the game is sabotaging Mithras' ritual so he's actually killable. Destroy Voldemort's horocruxes to weaken him.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #34
          CTPhipps Well that's fair then I haven't actually read it, but still agree with the point of not giving players stats of 1000s of years old vampires to pick apart.

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          • #35
            Will the Fall of London be available for pdf purchase?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by omenseer View Post
              Will the Fall of London be available for pdf purchase?
              Yes, in February or March.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #37
                Relatively soon then. Thank you.

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                • #38
                  So is the consensus(as much as could possibly be determined in an online forum) to never stat elders in V5? Curious how people are handling this. Its what Im leaning towards personally.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Frontline989 View Post
                    So is the consensus(as much as could possibly be determined in an online forum) to never stat elders in V5? Curious how people are handling this. Its what Im leaning towards personally.
                    I don't see how that's an argument. You can stat elders just fine but Mithras isn't an Elder. He's 6000 years old.

                    Mind you, I don't think most Elders should have stats over 5.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by omenseer View Post
                      My thought is to use these as temporary until they come out with more elder specific rules.
                      That's the issue. V5 confirmed that there will be no elders rules.

                      - Saga

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                        I don't see how that's an argument. You can stat elders just fine but Mithras isn't an Elder. He's 6000 years old.

                        Mind you, I don't think most Elders should have stats over 5.
                        Mithras (Cainite) is actually 3278 years old to this date. Mithras (Celestial Chorus mage) might be probably older.

                        - Saga

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                        • #42
                          I've heard from Gentleman Gamer (and others) that V5's mechanics still make characters with methuselah-level Blood Potency 8 really potent against neonates.

                          Whether you agree or disagree with that assertion, I'd posit it was still a wrong design call. People don't intuitively understand how powerful Blood Potency 8 is in the same way that seeing a bunch of 6+ traits feels powerful to them, because that is what they are used to from older editions of the game. People glance over Mithras' stats and walk away unimpressed. Statblocks are not an area you want overly much nuance or "well, if you look at it this way..." discussions, or at least not as it pertains to basic questions like "how powerful is this character."

                          You can make the argument for getting rid of 6+ Attributes and Skills. I think keeping them would have been a better mechanism to make elders potent than Blood Potency, but I can accept the basic argument for getting rid of them.

                          But I don't think you can get rid of 6+ Disciplines and still have the setting work as it's been presented in the past. By all means, make powers that were stupidly 6+ available to PCs, most weren't even that impressive. Don't even publish rules for elder Disciplines if you don't want to. Most groups are unlikely to get much mileage from them, so it'd be a waste of word count to spill as much ink as previous editions did. But right now, it is mechanically impossible for the Council of Seven to curse an entire clan, for Michael to enspell an entire city, or even for the Antediluvians to levy the Beckoning. You can chalk it up to "plot device," but if so, at least acknowledge in the rules somewhere that "uber Blood Potency characters can perform feats that are impossible for most Cainites." Right now, a new reader who only had the V5 book and Mithras' stats to go by wouldn't understand how any of those feats were possible beyond "plot device."

                          Hell, if you want detailed elder rules that don't take up extra space in the core book, just do what early editions of VtM did. Note under an NPC's sheet what their elder Discipline levels do in broad strokes. It takes a minimum of space and establishes for GMs just what the NPC is capable of.


                          Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post
                            I've heard from Gentleman Gamer (and others) that V5's mechanics still make characters with methuselah-level Blood Potency 8 really potent against neonates.

                            Whether you agree or disagree with that assertion, I'd posit it was still a wrong design call. People don't intuitively understand how powerful Blood Potency 8 is in the same way that seeing a bunch of 6+ traits feels powerful to them, because that is what they are used to from older editions of the game. People glance over Mithras' stats and walk away unimpressed. Statblocks are not an area you want overly much nuance or "well, if you look at it this way..." discussions, or at least not as it pertains to basic questions like "how powerful is this character."

                            You can make the argument for getting rid of 6+ Attributes and Skills. I think keeping them would have been a better mechanism to make elders potent than Blood Potency, but I can accept the basic argument for getting rid of them.

                            But I don't think you can get rid of 6+ Disciplines and still have the setting work as it's been presented in the past. By all means, make powers that were stupidly 6+ available to PCs, most weren't even that impressive. Don't even publish rules for elder Disciplines if you don't want to. Most groups are unlikely to get much mileage from them, so it'd be a waste of word count to spill as much ink as previous editions did. But right now, it is mechanically impossible for the Council of Seven to curse an entire clan, for Michael to enspell an entire city, or even for the Antediluvians to levy the Beckoning. You can chalk it up to "plot device," but if so, at least acknowledge in the rules somewhere that "uber Blood Potency characters can perform feats that are impossible for most Cainites." Right now, a new reader who only had the V5 book and Mithras' stats to go by wouldn't understand how any of those feats were possible beyond "plot device."

                            Hell, if you want detailed elder rules that don't take up extra space in the core book, just do what early editions of VtM did. Note under an NPC's sheet what their elder Discipline levels do in broad strokes. It takes a minimum of space and establishes for GMs just what the NPC is capable of.

                            I'd say it'd be best if they handled 6+ Disciplines the way 6+ Arcanas were presented in MtAw. Describe their effects in broad strokes while making all the ways they break the game clear.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Logothétēs View Post


                              I'd say it'd be best if they handled 6+ Disciplines the way 6+ Arcanas were presented in MtAw. Describe their effects in broad strokes while making all the ways they break the game clear.
                              Level 6+ Arcanas change the rules of the universe retroactively and are way too broken even compared to antediluvian stuf not ot mention that they require way too much preparation to be used , personally i would recover devotions or combo disciplines to be more tradicional and say that those who are the most powerful require you to have certain level of blood potency
                              Last edited by Leandro16; 02-02-2020, 02:20 PM.


                              https://www.deviantart.com/cicerondixit/gallery

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                                Level 6+ Arcanas change the rules of the universe retroactively
                                Btw, sorry I don’t look at NWoD. But iirc archmages of MtAw are really true plot device? I know MtAw also has an archmage book called Imperial Mysteries, which is a much better one compared to Masters of the Art, according to many guys. I wonder how powerful are they when rules about them are translated into MtA...

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