Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

tzimisce speculation v5

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    FYI - much to my surprise, the Ravnos are back first.

    THE CHICAGO FOLIO has Shejana.

    She is listed as a Caitiff (despite being referred to as a Ravnos), states that few people have any memory of them, and has Dominate, Fortitude, Presence as well as Obfuscate but no Chimestry.
    While that's good to hear, I do have to admit that the cynical part of me dreads that the Ravnos will get turned into Caitiff after hearing that her Clan is listed as Caitiff.


    Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post

      While that's good to hear, I do have to admit that the cynical part of me dreads that the Ravnos will get turned into Caitiff after hearing that her Clan is listed as Caitiff.
      I've heard rumors Paradox hates them and the Kuei-Jin equally.

      So their actions?




      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by SarcasticJazzHands View Post
        The Antediluvian with the power of illusion control and manipulation made his entire clan nearly disappear...
        That was my thinking as well.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

          That was my thinking as well.
          I won't lie, this is what came to mind.



          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            I've heard rumors Paradox hates them and the Kuei-Jin equally.

            So their actions?

            I know, hence the cynical part of me dreading that they've all been turned into Caitiff...

            Especially after Rev and V20 did so much to revise the Clan and present them in a far, far better light. But of course, that's not as meme-able as the old racist stereotypes so it gets forgotten about and so the higher-ups that barely understand the game look at the old stereotypes and look at today's social climate and just decide to discard them, cover them up and pretend they never existed. Which is frustrating to long timers like myself (even though Ravnos wouldn't be in my top five Clans) as we know the Clan, it's history and culture, and hate that a part of VtM is being tossed away so unceremoniously.

            Why is that the Ravnos are getting shafted while the Clans of Italian Mobsters, Muslim Assassins and Egyptian Cultists get to thrive in the world of V5?

            Honestly I find myself more and more frustrated by V5, not because it's a terrible Edition but because every time they do something I like or find good/interesting, it's like they feel compelled to do something terrible or infuriating to cancel it out. I could handle a shitty Edition or even the outright death of VtM but getting an V5 that's so all over the place is so... frustrating. I want to love V5 but at the same time, it wants to make me hate it. And frankly I do not see that changing anytime soon.


            Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

            Comment


            • The Tzimisce are easily one of my favorite (if not my favorite) clan/bloodline. The various stereotypical archetypes all appeal to me hoary honor-bound lords, horrific inhuman monsters, inscrutable alien things. The issue the Tzimisce run into is that for too long it was Metamorphosis = Tzimisce, that the way the Path was interpreted meant Vicissitude was a requirement. I think that mindset does both a disservice to the Path and the Clan. Correcting this is no more difficult (and I'd argue easier) than the previous problematic parts of the Banu Haqim, Ministry, or Hecata.

              In my mind the key to this lies in the clan's presentation in V20 Lore of the Clans, which does much to split Metamorphosis out while still explaining the core ideology from which it spawned. Azi Dahaka is explained as the quest for the transcendental through transformation. However I think this can be better distilled into the concept of control. Shaping themselves, exploring inhuman mindsets, and domineering others are all expressions of wanting control. Here's my thoughts regarding Tzimisce within V5's framework.

              Tzimisce Archetypes
              • The Voivode
                • The fiends were long the undisputed lords of the Carpathians. This politician harshly punishes failure but well rewards success inspiring slavish devotion in their servants as they appear to hold themselves to such lofty standards with a twisted sense of honor. What they can't directly control they seek to crush through force. Authoritarian rules, militarized policing, cronyism, hits, and intimidation are all hallmarks of the Voivode's reign.
              • The Alien
                • Metamorphosis, transcending the limitations of one's form, was once the prime goal of many in the clan. These Tzimisce seek to push beyond the limits of what is acceptable, going where others fear to tread. They express this desire through different ways. Experimentation on flesh bending, molding, and twisting the human form into unrecognizable permutations. Embodying the monstrous and seek to indulging id driven desire with no concern for the humane and urbane. Acting as dark priests of inhuman ideologies like the Ashen Priests of yore. Once iconic to the clan many have quested on the Gehenna War, seeking to liberate the blood from unworthy ancients; ironically leading to a transformation among the clan itself.
              • More Human than Human
                • Tzimisce tales speak of the Dracon as the preserver of the Eldest's humanity. This dragon wants a second chance at being mortal to take what they've learned and live a better fulfilled life (or many). They seek to immerse themselves in an identity to try and be what face they've chosen whether for the night or longer. Once few with the rise of the Second Inquisition some of these humane have stepped forward to help others of their kind forge a new "life". Something that has earned them a place in the Ivory Tower's halls to the Tremere's consternation.
              • The Koldun
                • Their embrace exposed them to a world beyond mortal ken and now they seek to know as much of such arcane things as possible. With obsessive drive they delve into secrets which may be best left unearthed. With hidden knowledge comes power that inspires a new cycle of exploration. New-agers, neo-pagans, and scholars are all drawn by the occult siren's call of the Koldun's art.
              • The Doctor
                • Some Tzimisce just want to correct what they see as faults. Often starting with themselves they tend toward inhuman beauty over the monstrous and alien. From there they look to fix others offering their guidance, instruction, and treatment. With so many in the modern world unhappy with themselves mentally or physically these gurus often find themselves leading groups of petitioners looking to "better" themselves (what others might call a cult).
              Disciplines
              • Given that I've interpreted them through the lens of control they have the following Disciplines
                • Animalism - Control over the beasts of their realm
                • Dominate - Control over the people of their realm
                • Protean (Vicissitude as alternate powers) - Control over themselves
                • I'd have a mention of Koldunic Sorcery (possibly with a Loresheet)

              Bane
              • The Tzimisce's need for control distills through their beasts into obsessive behaviors and count as having the Folkloric Block Flaw (-1), choosing one that suits their concept. Additionally all Tzimisce are compelled to sleep with two handfuls of native soil. What constitutes native soil varies from fiend to fiend for some its that of their grave, others its their last or childhood home, still others are bound to the blighted soil of the clan's Carpathian origins. Should your character fail to rest with their native soil they suffer a penalty to their die pools equal to their Bane Severity until such time they rest a full day with their soil.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cynic01 View Post
                The Tzimisce are easily one of my favorite (if not my favorite) clan/bloodline. The various stereotypical archetypes all appeal to me hoary honor-bound lords, horrific inhuman monsters, inscrutable alien things. The issue the Tzimisce run into is that for too long it was Metamorphosis = Tzimisce, that the way the Path was interpreted meant Vicissitude was a requirement. I think that mindset does both a disservice to the Path and the Clan. Correcting this is no more difficult (and I'd argue easier) than the previous problematic parts of the Banu Haqim, Ministry, or Hecata.

                In my mind the key to this lies in the clan's presentation in V20 Lore of the Clans, which does much to split Metamorphosis out while still explaining the core ideology from which it spawned. Azi Dahaka is explained as the quest for the transcendental through transformation. However I think this can be better distilled into the concept of control. Shaping themselves, exploring inhuman mindsets, and domineering others are all expressions of wanting control. Here's my thoughts regarding Tzimisce within V5's framework.

                Tzimisce Archetypes
                • The Voivode
                  • The fiends were long the undisputed lords of the Carpathians. This politician harshly punishes failure but well rewards success inspiring slavish devotion in their servants as they appear to hold themselves to such lofty standards with a twisted sense of honor. What they can't directly control they seek to crush through force. Authoritarian rules, militarized policing, cronyism, hits, and intimidation are all hallmarks of the Voivode's reign.
                • The Alien
                  • Metamorphosis, transcending the limitations of one's form, was once the prime goal of many in the clan. These Tzimisce seek to push beyond the limits of what is acceptable, going where others fear to tread. They express this desire through different ways. Experimentation on flesh bending, molding, and twisting the human form into unrecognizable permutations. Embodying the monstrous and seek to indulging id driven desire with no concern for the humane and urbane. Acting as dark priests of inhuman ideologies like the Ashen Priests of yore. Once iconic to the clan many have quested on the Gehenna War, seeking to liberate the blood from unworthy ancients; ironically leading to a transformation among the clan itself.
                • More Human than Human
                  • Tzimisce tales speak of the Dracon as the preserver of the Eldest's humanity. This dragon wants a second chance at being mortal to take what they've learned and live a better fulfilled life (or many). They seek to immerse themselves in an identity to try and be what face they've chosen whether for the night or longer. Once few with the rise of the Second Inquisition some of these humane have stepped forward to help others of their kind forge a new "life". Something that has earned them a place in the Ivory Tower's halls to the Tremere's consternation.
                • The Koldun
                  • Their embrace exposed them to a world beyond mortal ken and now they seek to know as much of such arcane things as possible. With obsessive drive they delve into secrets which may be best left unearthed. With hidden knowledge comes power that inspires a new cycle of exploration. New-agers, neo-pagans, and scholars are all drawn by the occult siren's call of the Koldun's art.
                • The Doctor
                  • Some Tzimisce just want to correct what they see as faults. Often starting with themselves they tend toward inhuman beauty over the monstrous and alien. From there they look to fix others offering their guidance, instruction, and treatment. With so many in the modern world unhappy with themselves mentally or physically these gurus often find themselves leading groups of petitioners looking to "better" themselves (what others might call a cult).
                Disciplines
                • Given that I've interpreted them through the lens of control they have the following Disciplines
                  • Animalism - Control over the beasts of their realm
                  • Dominate - Control over the people of their realm
                  • Protean (Vicissitude as alternate powers) - Control over themselves
                  • I'd have a mention of Koldunic Sorcery (possibly with a Loresheet)
                Bane
                • The Tzimisce's need for control distills through their beasts into obsessive behaviors and count as having the Folkloric Block Flaw (-1), choosing one that suits their concept. Additionally all Tzimisce are compelled to sleep with two handfuls of native soil. What constitutes native soil varies from fiend to fiend for some its that of their grave, others its their last or childhood home, still others are bound to the blighted soil of the clan's Carpathian origins. Should your character fail to rest with their native soil they suffer a penalty to their die pools equal to their Bane Severity until such time they rest a full day with their soil.


                I like that break down of archetypes. Not sure I agree on Dominate (and Protean merging with Vicissitude but that's already stated), Auspex also fits the theme, as to control, you need to comprehend.

                Comment


                • I, for one, love every VTM clan.The Giovanni are the worst, and I'd still give them a 6/10. (the Biggest flaw being they don't really mesh with others)

                  If ya don't love a clan, it's cause you don't get them. (and subsequently, you shouldn't be rewriting them to work for you; House Carna is a Terrible idea) Embrace the mindset.For Tzmisce, embrace Vicissitude. The more you understand, the more it works.


                  V5 is not VTM

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    I, for one, love every VTM clan.The Giovanni are the worst, and I'd still give them a 6/10. (the Biggest flaw being they don't really mesh with others)

                    If ya don't love a clan, it's cause you don't get them. (and subsequently, you shouldn't be rewriting them to work for you; House Carna is a Terrible idea) Embrace the mindset.For Tzmisce, embrace Vicissitude. The more you understand, the more it works.
                    I mean, the Tzimisce aren't defined by Vicissitude (and imo shouldn't be). You can absolutely find a Malkavian who focuses on Obfuscate without a drop of Auspex/Dominate/Dementation and they'll still be just as much a Malk as ever. I'd say the Tzimisce should be too: a Tzimisce who focuses on Dominate and Animalism, ultimate lord of their domain and everyone in it who controls mind and soul and Beast like it's second nature, is more in line with the clan's design philosophy than someone who just wants to make fleshmonsters for the lulz.

                    Now, does it make sense that the Tzimisce are the ones who developed this particular quick of the Blood? Absolutely. It's a mixture of the metamorphosist's reshaping of the self and the voivode's ultimate control over everything within their domain. But Vicissitude is a result of the Tzimisce, imo, rather than the other way around.

                    (That's also why my temporary V5 writeup of the Tzimisce gives them Dominate instead of Auspex, even though it's a change from their traditional discipline spread. Sculpting minds feels much more Tzimisce to me than reading them.)

                    Comment


                    • The Auspex comes from the Whamphyri, who were all telepaths with superhuman senses, with only some of them capable of hypnosis.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
                        The Auspex comes from the Whamphyri, who were all telepaths with superhuman senses, with only some of them capable of hypnosis.
                        Ahh, that would explain it. Though I do still think that, within the specific setting of VtM rather than Necroscope, Dominate fits them better.

                        Comment


                        • I think removing any clan from VTM lessens the game in a significantly negative way. The writers need to find a way to add to the clans without taking anything away.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Frontline989 View Post
                            I think removing any clan from VTM lessens the game in a significantly negative way. The writers need to find a way to add to the clans without taking anything away.
                            I admittedly kind of like the fact they didn't back down on the Ravnos being destroyed. That's a change that mattered and isn't "I'm the last Tremere Antitribu!"


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Draconis View Post

                              Ahh, that would explain it. Though I do still think that, within the specific setting of VtM rather than Necroscope, Dominate fits them better.
                              While they aren't one of my favourite clans, I do like that they have auspex. It contributes to their image as one of the "wise" clans. And I think they can do without dominate because they could:
                              1. rely upon other means of control like blood bonding and terror.
                              2. think they have better things to cultivate than humans or even other vampires, like their own physical and spiritual environments and themselves.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
                                The Auspex comes from the Whamphyri, who were all telepaths with superhuman senses, with only some of them capable of hypnosis.

                                As I haven't read these bokks you speak of, I assumed Auspex was useful because Tzmisce are messing with flesh, and flesh has many, many fine details you'd need auspex to work with. There's no finer companion. Animalism, meanwhile, I imagine works on people who've had a lobotomy.


                                V5 is not VTM

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X