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tzimisce speculation v5

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  • The Animalism is probably a Dracula thing. Dracula displays control over swarms of animals far more than he displays hypnotism in the novel. Also, his hypnotism doesn't so much control people as drug them into lethargy, which is more Animalism 3 than Dominate.

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    • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
      As I haven't read these bokks you speak of, I assumed Auspex was useful because Tzmisce are messing with flesh, and flesh has many, many fine details you'd need auspex to work with. There's no finer companion. Animalism, meanwhile, I imagine works on people who've had a lobotomy.
      The Animalism is absolutely because of Dracula's control over animals, though "I shut down all your drives and passions" and "I frenzy? No, you frenzy!" feel very Old Clan.

      As far as flesh-requires-Auspex, that makes sense, though in V20 and earlier Vicissitude lets you manipulate flesh without requiring any other disciplines. I suppose it could be an Amalgam (aka combo discipline) mixing in Auspex in V5, though that's not the way I'd personally handle it.

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      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

        I admittedly kind of like the fact they didn't back down on the Ravnos being destroyed. That's a change that mattered and isn't "I'm the last Tremere Antitribu!"
        Funny enough, they technically did bring back the Tremere Antitribu with the return of House Goratrix in V5. And if I remember right, they even implied that some of the Antitribu never actually died.

        An Antitribu Bloodline that was wiped out and could have easily been replaced by a new faction in the broken Tremere Pyramid gets brought back but one of the original 13 Clans that got hit hard over twenty years ago and even back then wasn't wiped out and had home far removed from much of the other Clans and Sects, is now wiped out.

        Because that makes all the sense.


        Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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        • Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post

          Funny enough, they technically did bring back the Tremere Antitribu with the return of House Goratrix in V5. And if I remember right, they even implied that some of the Antitribu never actually died.

          An Antitribu Bloodline that was wiped out and could have easily been replaced by a new faction in the broken Tremere Pyramid gets brought back but one of the original 13 Clans that got hit hard over twenty years ago and even back then wasn't wiped out and had home far removed from much of the other Clans and Sects, is now wiped out.

          Because that makes all the sense.
          Paradox REALLY does not like the Ravnos or Kuei Jin according to some sources.

          It reminds me of this:



          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • Don't forget that there canonically ARE Ravnos still hanging around. Even if the Chicago Folio implies they're basically extinct and Caitiff the corebook has the Week of Nightmares Loresheet that can give a Kindred a small Mawla group of Ravnos informants, and even makes mention that they can create great illusions.

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            • Originally posted by IllithidActivity View Post
              Don't forget that there canonically ARE Ravnos still hanging around. Even if the Chicago Folio implies they're basically extinct and Caitiff the corebook has the Week of Nightmares Loresheet that can give a Kindred a small Mawla group of Ravnos informants, and even makes mention that they can create great illusions.
              True but that doesn't change the fact that they have effectively destroyed one of the Thirteen Clans by turning them into Caitiff. And this not a Salubri/Tremere or Cappadocian/Giovanni/Hecata situation where the original Clan was usurped and replaced. They have DESTROYED one of the Thirteen Clans, meaning that there are only Twelve Clans now. And they've largely done so off screen as even the Rev Ed Ravnos were still a Clan. Especially the Rev Ed Clan Book that had them as far from being doomed which was over twenty years ago. And I'm sure someone would bring up the Second Inquisition and that they could have crushed the Ravnos but the problem with that is that in the V5 Cam book they reveal that India, the Homeland of the Ravnos and where they're strongest, is one of the countries that SI has difficulties operating in.

              Add on the fact they are seemingly doing away with Bloodllines, with the breaking of the Ravnos into Caitiff, they are taking away our options as players and storytellers, and reducing the diversity of Vampire: the Masquerade and the World of Darkness.

              And all because of the old Gypsy stereotype that even the original White Wolf long moved away from.


              Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post

                True but that doesn't change the fact that they have effectively destroyed one of the Thirteen Clans by turning them into Caitiff. And this not a Salubri/Tremere or Cappadocian/Giovanni/Hecata situation where the original Clan was usurped and replaced. They have DESTROYED one of the Thirteen Clans, meaning that there are only Twelve Clans now. And they've largely done so off screen as even the Rev Ed Ravnos were still a Clan. Especially the Rev Ed Clan Book that had them as far from being doomed which was over twenty years ago. And I'm sure someone would bring up the Second Inquisition and that they could have crushed the Ravnos but the problem with that is that in the V5 Cam book they reveal that India, the Homeland of the Ravnos and where they're strongest, is one of the countries that SI has difficulties operating in.

                Add on the fact they are seemingly doing away with Bloodllines, with the breaking of the Ravnos into Caitiff, they are taking away our options as players and storytellers, and reducing the diversity of Vampire: the Masquerade and the World of Darkness.

                And all because of the old Gypsy stereotype that even the original White Wolf long moved away from.
                Yep, the 13th Clan role has been taken by the Caitiff/Thin Bloods.

                Really, this seems to be a restoration of the intent of Revised, which was a clan was DESTROYED.

                A way to show the high stakes of Gehenna.
                Last edited by CTPhipps; 02-19-2020, 02:21 PM.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                  Yep, the 13th Clan role has been taken by the Caitiff/Thin Bloods.

                  Really, this seems to be a restoration of the intent of Revised, which was a clan was DESTROYED.

                  A way to show the high stakes of Gehenna.


                  if they decide, as has been previously hinted, to tie the WoD more tightly together, having it be the Technocracy, not the SI dropping the hammer would be an interesting plot point, showing that 'Always Bigger Fish' that is the Conventions, and explaining how and why a Clan was torn down.

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                  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    Yep, the 13th Clan role has been taken by the Caitiff/Thin Bloods.

                    Really, this seems to be a restoration of the intent of Revised, which was a clan was DESTROYED.

                    A way to show the high stakes of Gehenna.
                    The problem with that is that pretty much as soon as they did the Week of Nightmares, they immediately started backtracking on the destruction of the Ravnos. Again, the Rev Ed Clan Book took the stance of that while the Clan has suffered a heavy blow, reports of the Clan's destruction are overblown.

                    And I will admit that if that turns out to be the case in V5, where the Ravnos still exist as a Clan and having been using their supposed destruction as a smokescreen to protect themselves, I will retract my comments and give a nod to the devs. But the problem is, with everything I've heard as well as my own previously mentioned frustration and cynicism towards V5, I don't see that happening anytime soon if at all.

                    Which in turn only adds to my frustration and cynicism towards V5.

                    As for the 13th Clan spot being taken by the Caitiff or Thin-bloods (which are two very different things and shouldn't be lumped together), that really annoys me as they are Clanless. Sure, the Sabbat had the Panders but those were less a true Bloodline/Clan and more social-political group of Caitiff coming together. There is no shared Blood that unites the Caitiff and Thin-bloods.


                    Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Taggie View Post
                      If they decide, as has been previously hinted, to tie the WoD more tightly together, having it be the Technocracy, not the SI dropping the hammer would be an interesting plot point, showing that 'Always Bigger Fish' that is the Conventions, and explaining how and why a Clan was torn down.
                      Honestly, I wouldn't mind if they retconned the Second Inquisition using the India's resources to be behind the Ravnos Antediluvian's death. I felt like having it be the result of another splat's villains gave too much street cred to the Technocracy when they've wasted 600 years of their existence chasing faith healers and Wiccans instead of real monsters. It would be interesting if Marcus Vitel was behind it and perhaps used his influence with the world's governments to help.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • Even if they write out the Ravnos you still have to give us a V5 Chimerstry since numerous non Ravnos vampires will have learned the discipline in the centuries leading up to the Week of Nightmares.

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                        • Originally posted by Frontline989 View Post
                          Even if they write out the Ravnos you still have to give us a V5 Chimerstry since numerous non Ravnos vampires will have learned the discipline in the centuries leading up to the Week of Nightmares.
                          The Chicago Folios indicates that Ravnos have Dominate and Obfuscate rather than Chimestry.

                          I would say that they have Obfuscate, Fortitude, and Dominate.

                          Ditch Animalism.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                            Honestly, I wouldn't mind if they retconned the Second Inquisition using the India's resources to be behind the Ravnos Antediluvian's death. I felt like having it be the result of another splat's villains gave too much street cred to the Technocracy when they've wasted 600 years of their existence chasing faith healers and Wiccans instead of real monsters. It would be interesting if Marcus Vitel was behind it and perhaps used his influence with the world's governments to help.

                            That would also work. Depends on how you see Consensus as to what the Technocracy has been being, being worthless, so it's a YMMV thing.

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                            • Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post
                              True but that doesn't change the fact that they have effectively destroyed one of the Thirteen Clans by turning them into Caitiff. And this not a Salubri/Tremere or Cappadocian/Giovanni/Hecata situation where the original Clan was usurped and replaced. They have DESTROYED one of the Thirteen Clans, meaning that there are only Twelve Clans now.
                              Didn't the number of clans get reduced to twelve all the way back in Revised? Clanbook Setite Revised had a whole chapter on how the twelve clans of the Aions (plus the Setites as the thirteenth) are linked to the underlying structure of the cosmos, and that the twelve being reduced to eleven showed how reality was starting to fray at the seams, giving the Setites an opportunity like none other to break others free of their mental chains. And that was about twenty years ago now, OOC.

                              V5's made it clear that a non-trivial number of Ravnos survived and that they're still able to do illusions, that's in the corebook. And there's another NPC in Chicago whose clan is listed as "Malkavian", but has necromancy and is obsessed with death and has Path of Bones-style convictions—I suspect they have a painful bite, too. The fact that the sheets say "Caitiff" doesn't mean they no longer have a clan bane or that they can't do Chimerstry. It just means they're presenting themselves to Chicago as individuals without a whole clan behind them.

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                              • Originally posted by Frontline989 View Post
                                Even if they write out the Ravnos you still have to give us a V5 Chimerstry since numerous non Ravnos vampires will have learned the discipline in the centuries leading up to the Week of Nightmares.
                                The corebook's confirmed that the Ravnos still exist and can still use illusions. It's just not its own discipline any more, because V5's removed all clan-specific disciplines and merged them together. Given what we've seen in Folios and Cults, I'm expecting a mixture of Obfuscate and Dominate.

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