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tzimisce speculation v5

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  • #31
    Originally posted by elmerg View Post
    So what are you expecting about the Sabbat from Chapters? It's set after the fall of the Sabbat in Montreal, it's not likely to have much 'and here is the whole picture' type setup.
    Basically, all the info we've gotten with Kickstarter indicates a bunch of Sabbat priests, soldiers, and others so we'll have a good idea what they're currently doing.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
      In my games, I think Kupala should have been killed by Dracula and this results in the Tzimisce suddenly losing Vicisstiude for Protean except through Koldunic ritual.

      The most Path of Metamorphisis inhuman and demon-worshiping of their kind have also been either eaten by the Eldest or the Dracon.

      So the younger Tzimisce have turned to the Old Clan for re-education.
      So they loose what makes the Tzim interesting and become cut price Ventrue? No thanks.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Taggie View Post

        So they loose what makes the Tzim interesting and become cut price Ventrue? No thanks.
        You're only interested in a bunch of psychotic flesh-monsters? That's unfortunate. I think better of your storytelling.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          You're only interested in a bunch of psychotic flesh-monsters? That's unfortunate. I think better of your storytelling.
          I am interested in the space they occupy, yes, we don't need yet another High Clan noble with Dominate clan, the Ventrue have that covered, as do the Tremere, but then this edition is kicking out inhumanity in favor of sexual predator themes, that has a place, just not as the only game in town.

          Edit:Twilight references were to harsh.
          Last edited by Taggie; 02-05-2020, 02:00 PM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by GilbyTheFat View Post
            I mean, personally, I'm down with the purple twenty-mouthed tentacle-donkey. Binky for Cardinal 2020!
            Hrmph. Just try planning a proper meeting of wicked refinements and sinister plans because you are a Lasombra and that's how you roll. Then in comes Binky, slither-hopping, and braying from all his mouths and it just turns the entire evening into something from an episode of Rick and Morty.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

              Hrmph. Just try planning a proper meeting of wicked refinements and sinister plans because you are a Lasombra and that's how you roll. Then in comes Binky, slither-hopping, and braying from all his mouths and it just turns the entire evening into something from an episode of Rick and Morty.
              I mean, that just sounds like fun times!

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

                Hrmph. Just try planning a proper meeting of wicked refinements and sinister plans because you are a Lasombra and that's how you roll. Then in comes Binky, slither-hopping, and braying from all his mouths and it just turns the entire evening into something from an episode of Rick and Morty.
                I mean yeah, the first several times, sure. But these are 1) "eternal" vampires, and 2) the Sabbat. Those who make plans in the Sabbat will end up becoming jaded by the whole thing, and conversations with dudes with tentacles and twenty mouths just becomes "normal".

                If it ever becomes too much of a problem, there's an obvious remedy: the most obnoxious fleshcrafters end up not being invited to meetings. Thereby selectively eliminating anyone who can't get down to business when needed from the stock of Sabbat movers and shakers.


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                • #38
                  Vicissitude makes complete sense as new Protean powers. Not every Discipline has two per level, so there is precedent for adding more.

                  If not, they work as amalgams, but none of them really scream Auspex or Animalism combos to me. Maybe Dominate, flavored as "imposing one's will" on living flesh. If Old Clan Tzimisce is going to be reintegrated into the clan, I could see Dominate as a new Discipline for them. Auspex never really screamed Tzimisce to me.

                  You could also probably cut Vicissitude down to just Malleable Visage (rename Vicissitude?), Fleshcraft, and Bonecraft. The higher levels always felt a little tacked-on to me.


                  Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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                  • #39
                    I think all the unique disciplines that you were afraid of learning is apart of vampire. You don't want to learn Dementation because you think it'll make you mad, whilst obtenebration/diamonion will send you to hell, tzmisce will turn you into an alien, quietus/serpentis will make you a cultist, thaumaturgy will have your soul given to a devil...

                    Fear.
                    It's about fear.

                    Now everything's the same you've completely lost that aspect. Everything's familiar. shadow summoning from an unknown and hostile demension? Oh that's just a little place beneath where the necromancers get their stuff from: There's no need to speculate. There's no fear of the unknown.


                    Also, twenty clear cut disciplines is way better than seven disciplines with two hundred possible powers.


                    V5 is not VTM

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                      Also, twenty clear cut disciplines is way better than seven disciplines with two hundred possible powers.
                      This. V5's complete aversion to signature disciplines is one of the worst design directions in nearly 30 years of Vampire: The Masquerade. If the designers were truly committed to pruning up the discipline list in their quest for purity, they should have started with Dominate and Presence, two types of psychic influence that have only the flimsiest flavor justification for being separate disciplines. The idea that controlling shadows and talking with the dead are clearly the one and the same discipline but the manipulation of other people's thoughts and the manipulation of other people's emotions are so far removed from one another that never the twain shall meet is laughable on its face. This whole project of merging classic disciplines is critically flawed at the core, like so much of V5.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
                        This. V5's complete aversion to signature disciplines is one of the worst design directions in nearly 30 years of Vampire: The Masquerade. If the designers were truly committed to pruning up the discipline list in their quest for purity, they should have started with Dominate and Presence, two types of psychic influence that have only the flimsiest flavor justification for being separate disciplines. The idea that controlling shadows and talking with the dead are clearly the one and the same discipline but the manipulation of other people's thoughts and the manipulation of other people's emotions are so far removed from one another that never the twain shall meet is laughable on its face. This whole project of merging classic disciplines is critically flawed at the core, like so much of V5.
                        That's a good point, if your going to commit to a bit commit all the way. It feels they had more confidence in screwing with the edgy disciplines but they didn't want to mess with the basic bread and butter ones. But I never thought of that, Presence and Dominate would work fused.


                        It is a time for great deeds!

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                        • #42
                          They messed plenty with bread and butter disciplines like Potence, Celerity, and Fortitude. It feels less like they don't want to mess with things, so much as they want to create archetypes via selective levels of disciplines rather than alternate disciplines. You want to play a raging berzerker? Take the Fort 5 that increases your damage via the damage you take. You want to play more of a living statue like Twilight or mimiic the high armor of a knight? Take the Fort that reduces damage. But not both. You are a Barb or a Paladin, not a Barbadin.

                          And I suspect that future supliments will make this even clearer. You can already take multiple non-shapeshifting options in Protean, for example. I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually increase such options to the point where you can play what is effectively a Terminator: a Protean master who can't shapeshift at all but who has glowing red eyes and four different durability enhancements or subtle utility powers. Ditto for just about any movie/novel vampire you can name, and even some non-vampire monsters.

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                          • #43
                            That's a fair point, I haven't digested V5 yet, still stuck on V20/DAV20. I understand their reasoning though they want them fun and flexible and they didn't want to make Elder only powers. And reworking the system essentially makes it so we don't have elder powers as elders just have more of the robust normal powers.

                            But go one step further, what if we did pile Presence and Dominate into one Discipline and Fortitude, Potence and Celerity into one discipline!? Maaaadnesss...


                            It is a time for great deeds!

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                              But go one step further, what if we did pile Presence and Dominate into one Discipline and Fortitude, Potence and Celerity into one discipline!? Maaaadnesss...
                              I mean, the only real probldems with that are the five powers per discipline limit and Clan Discipline spreads, and the latter only because we're not designing from scratch. But as a general rule, for the fewest number of possible disciplines:
                              -The three physicals can by put together
                              -Dominate, Presence, and Animalism are all different variations on mind control, differing in power, scope, and targets. We could also put the psychic invisibility powers of Obfuscate in here. Possibly Chimerstry as well.
                              -Auspex is pretty unique with it's perception-enhancing powers.
                              -Protean can pick up Vicissitude, Serpentis, and maybe the disguise powers from dominate.
                              -Necromancy can be folded into Blood Sorcery without losing much, Plus most other special disciplines, if Quietus can be part of it I don't see why Obtenebretion can't be.

                              S if we really want to cut dwn to the smallest number of disciplines possible I make it as we can squeeze all the disciplines from the thirteen Clans into five (physical enhancement, mentalism, sensory enhancement, shapeshifting, and weird magic stuff). And it's not bad, just not something to inflict on a game with a history of far more disciplines.

                              But I think the point to combining disciplines is to avoid situations like the Tzimisce where a Clan ended up becoming defined by it's signature discipline (which not even the Giovanni had to the same extent). I suspect that 90% of the 1-5 powers will still be there, although maybe combined with other powers as was the case with Serpentis (which was always weird as a separate discipline). But now there's less of a push to have the weird powers just because you took that Clan, you can just take 'normal' powers instead.


                              Honestly if the Tzimisce go back to being Lords in their Castles, the Ventrue stay as businesspeople (or knights in any potential V5 Dark Ages), and the Lasombra go baxk to having their Dark Ages strong ties to organised religion we'll have three fairly distinct Clans even without their unique powers.


                              Blue is sarcasm.

                              If I suggestion I make contradicts in-setting metaphysics please ignore me, I probably brought in scientific ideas.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Banu_Saulot View Post
                                And well, there will be the loyalist (or just psychopathic) Tzimisce remaining in the Sabbat, those nobles and traditionalist of the Old Clan, and certainly those that think the Sabbat is just a freaking mess (now and always) and go Anarch, in the excuse that they want freedom and not suicide Jyhads, and also that the Anarchs are the primordial movement and sect, while the Sabbat is its twisted and fanatic clone.
                                Amusingly enough V20 has Tzimisce Anarchs that are pretty much that. They view the Sabbat as a betrayal of the Anarch Revolt and the Tzimisce of the Sabbat as traitors.

                                And on sidenote, I am very happy for that change. I never liked that while other Clans (save for the Giovanni but that's different story) had groups in other Sects, with the Tzimisce you're only choice was Sabbat or Independent. Yeah, they have great deal of hate for the Tremere and the Camarilla they created but at the same time, many Tzimisce were involved with the First Anarch Revolt. Why wouldn't there be Tzimisce that stayed with the Movement?

                                What I would do with the Tzimisce politically in V5 is have the Anarch Tzimisce swell in number with Sabbat defectors and become the face of the Clan just as the Camarilla Lasombra have become the face of theirs. Maybe they have the Old Clan join the Camarilla if you want to do something with them.

                                Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                                I am interested in the space they occupy, yes, we don't need yet another High Clan noble with Dominate clan, the Ventrue have that covered, as do the Tremere, but then this edition is kicking out inhumanity in favor of sexual predator themes, that has a place, just not as the only game in town. If I wanted a Twilight rpg I could have asked for one, I don't need WW to turn vampire into one.
                                Exactly. A couple years back I was in a V20 game with two NPC Tzimisce Anarchs. One of them was basically the ultimate succubus, using Vicisstiude to take the form of what they thought would entice their prey best. The other was a more diehard Anarch who used Vicisstiude more for the Cause. At one point she was using her power to hide an Anarch leader that been setup and hit with a Blood Hunt by the Camarilla by altering his appearance.

                                Vicisstiude doesn't have to be used just for alien fleshcrafting.


                                Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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