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V5 - What are the Sabbat up to in your games?

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  • V5 - What are the Sabbat up to in your games?

    Yeah, it's non-canon but share how you'd do the Sabbat in V5 and what you think are good ideas or bad ones.

    What are the Sabbat up to in V5 in C.T. Phipps' WOD

    "You destroyed us, Doctor. The Dalek race died in your inferno, but my ship survived, falling through time, crippled but alive." - The Dalek Emperor

    If you wonder why I use this quote, it's because it's an insight into how I use the Sabbat in V5. The Sabbat have suffered unimaginable losses with the loss of Mexico City, Montreal, and many of their cities in South America. They've lost a huge chunk of their military assets in the Gehenna War, had some defections to the Anarchs, and there's the whole Fifth Sabbat Civil War with the Lasombra defection. The Sabbat are at their weakest since the Convention of Thorns but that just means that the leanest, hungriest, as well as most capable survivors of the Black Hand are those left.

    The Sabbat that are left exist sort of like the Imperial Remnant in the old Star Wars EU (for a extra geeky reference). There are Fortress Cities like Miami where the Sabbat Archbishop of the city rules with no oversight as independent warlords. They are officially still part of the Sword of Caine but the few remaining Cardinals and Pricius have no real ability to make them obey. They may contribute a handful of operatives and support to the larger Sabbat cause but only if they have something to gain from it.

    The Camarilla COULD go after these cities but, honestly, they have much bigger problems and chose to strike back instead by accepting the Lasombra's offer and manipulating the SI against them. This, of course, is stupid as it just enflames the SI by exposing them to the worst of Caine's get.

    The Black Hand has broken into two groups with the Children of Zillah led by Dastur Anosh and the Servitors of Irad of which the latter is just the True Hand. Both are just Gehenna cults that really have very little care about the actual Sabbat anymore. They are following more esoteric concerns and are heavily involved in the Gehenna War. Almost all of the old Assamite Antribu have also joined the Web of Knives back at Alamut to serve Ur-Shulgi or did until it was destroyed by the United States military under unknown direction. The Web of Knives is now scattered and lost.

    The Sabbat Inquisition has become its own independent organization, hunting down diabolists and twisted sorcerers harnessing the power of hell. They are opposed to the Baali-ridden True Hand and members of the Red List dabbling in infernalism. Oddly enough, the Inquisition controls a number of cities by itself and have made a certain level of peace with its neighbors. It has also cooperated with the Second Inquisition and Hecata several times in what is the strangest alliance of all. Part of this is due to the fact they include virtually the entirety of the Salubri Antitribu who have gladly destroyed most of their more psychotic and typical Sabbat members. Many Lasombra members defected to the Camarilla and are working to negotiate a neutrality agreement for this group among them.

    House Goratrix is oddly enough aligned with the Sabbat Inquisition and has also declared its neutrality to the Camarilla. A massive attempt on their headquarters was attempted by many 5th and 6th generation blood hungry Gehenna Crusaders possessed by ancient monsters--all of them were obliterated in what is the biggest defeat they have suffered.

    The Sabbat Loyalists, Panders, and Serpents of Light have survived almost entirely intact but by doing so via desertion. They more or less dropped out of the Gehenna Crusade and then popped up in Anarch controlled cities or working with the "Ministry." They don't talk about their past but their defection is what has resulted in the Anarchs going from their mostly live and let live attitude the Camarilla to full-scale war. They are the worst of the Anarchs and why they have started to become Sabbat-lite in many respects.

    The Harbingers of Skulls have left the Sabbat and did so with a polite letter. The Harbingers have achieved everything they wanted with the Sword of Caine and consider all of their debts there repaid.

    As we know, half the Lasombra defected to the Camarilla in what a very bloody Civil War that left a good chunk of Elders dead (not just Lasombra either as they struck at the Elders of many Antitribu bloodlines). The surviving Lasombra in the Sword of Caine are weakened and either far more obsessive than before or pragmatic enough to be more sound and fury than signifying anything. They are content to rule their cities and cults in peace while pretending the Sabbat will rise again.

    The Tzimisce should have emerged the strongest of the group but they have not because Sasca Vykos has rebelled against his old ways, stating that they'd been manipulated by the Dracon and the Eldest. With many of their Elders have mysteriously disappeared, the clan is undergoing something of a re-examination. Some have returned to the Old Country to be re-educated by the Old Clan or Dracula with some stating the latter defeated Kupala, freeing their clan from a millennia-long curse. They are still the strongest of the Sabbat clans but the independents among their kind are almost as large as the Sabbat remnant.

    Some have also suggested they should rename themselves the Dracon. Vykos, of course, objects.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 02-05-2020, 05:59 AM.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

  • #2
    I've just ignored every single thing about V5. The Sabbat are still what they were in the days of Monteal By Night and the like: the dominant political sect in a substantial minority of the western world. Vampires concerned as much with advancing on their Path of Enlightenment as the usual stuff vampires do to survive everywhere. Indeed, balancing path-progress with mundane concerns is a big part of my Sabbat games, as various groups who know the ins and outs of paths use that knowledge to manipulate them.

    Right now I'm running a V20 Sabbat game set in 1930's New Orleans(a Sabbat city in my private universe) where paths are extremely important. As soon as I can figure out a way to properly do paths in V5, I will be switching to that.

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    • #3
      Your layout is pretty cool, CTPhipps. I appreciate the EU 'Imperial Warlords' styling of it.

      In the last tabletop game I ran, the Sabbat was mainly involved in the Gehenna Crusade, with a few roving packs dogging Camarilla and Anarch stragglers and territory edges. A few enterprising Sabbat were starting their own 'cults of personality,' forming their own little groups. In the city my game was set in, the small group of Sabbat (mainly a small pack and a bunch of Anarchs who didn't know nay better, but liked the violence) were working on experimental designer drugs in order to induce Dyscrasias.

      I don't have plans for them to show up in the LARP I'm currently running.

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      • #4
        I was literally going to start a post about this to steal ideas from others. How do you incorporate the sabaat who actually succeeded at diablerizing an elder in the middle east and came back changed.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
          I've just ignored every single thing about V5. The Sabbat are still what they were in the days of Monteal By Night and the like: the dominant political sect in a substantial minority of the western world. Vampires concerned as much with advancing on their Path of Enlightenment as the usual stuff vampires do to survive everywhere. Indeed, balancing path-progress with mundane concerns is a big part of my Sabbat games, as various groups who know the ins and outs of paths use that knowledge to manipulate them.

          Right now I'm running a V20 Sabbat game set in 1930's New Orleans(a Sabbat city in my private universe) where paths are extremely important. As soon as I can figure out a way to properly do paths in V5, I will be switching to that.
          So you can't contribute to this thread. That sucks.

          Oh well, plenty of other ones.

          Originally posted by RadioFreeDeath View Post
          I was literally going to start a post about this to steal ideas from others. How do you incorporate the sabaat who actually succeeded at diablerizing an elder in the middle east and came back changed.
          RadioFreeDeath

          I think of it as the idea that the Sabbat diablerist is dead. If John Billingham from Sussex diablerises an ancient then he wakes up as Auxxitalicus the Unbeliever who is a 5000 year old Ventrue Antritribu who proceeds to awaken with full knowledge of how the Modern World works, the ability to speak English, and no need to enter torpor.

          His generation lowers from 11th generation Brujah Antitribu to 6th generation and he has all the powers of a Ventrue of the 5th generation with just a few of his strongest powers no longer available. This is a small price to pay for Auxxitalicus as he proceeds to go out and take over the local Sabbat packs then make them into their minions as well as start conquering cities for themselves.

          Basically, there's a bunch of Monty Coven/Mithrases running around and each able to carve their own kingdoms.
          Last edited by CTPhipps; 02-05-2020, 01:15 AM.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • #6
            The Sabbat counter-part to the Anarch Red Question, and the Camarilla SchreckNet, would see the creation of 4Chan, the RedPill subreddit, and RedTube. You know, inhuman and unforgivable stuff.

            (clears throat)

            Right. My take is there are three groups.

            A. Sabbat who never went to the Gehenna war, and survived the debacles across the America, are now trying to keep a low profile. They want to survive, and to do that they want to remain undiscovered. This means they are infiltrating the Camarilla and the Anarch, but have no long term goals or coordination. Still a bunch of murderous assholes.

            B. Sabbat who went to the Gehenna war, and survived. These are the one who did not get consumed or taken over by the ancients. They are terrified of what they saw and learned, and are terrifying in turn. They are willing to use subterfuge and have some long term goals and decent coordination. Still a bunch of murderous assholes.

            C. Sabbat who went to the Gehenna war and were taken over by the ancients, or survived but now worship the ancients. Some men just want to watch the world burn.


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            • #7
              Entirely in the background, currently. Boogymen.

              Comment


              • #8
                I could see the Black Hand either reuniting or warring with the True Hand (or both) because Enoch is such valuable real estate. It's one of the few places truly safe from the Second Inquisition, relatively safe from Anarchs, and indeed, it might even be safe from the Beckoning. Does the Antediluvians' call sound across the Shroud? If it doesn't, the Hand could do very well for themselves by making a simple offer to elders: join up with us and you won't be dinner.

                The Sixth Great Maelstrom could complicate things, depending on how that's panned out. It seems like it still happened when the Week of Nightmares is canon. But after this long, there have to be calm spots in the Underworld.

                Many True Handers might also be deluded enough to actually answer the Beckoning and rejoice in the fact they can finally serve the Antediluvians. The sect might have split along those lines, with the (False) Black Hand throwing in with the "don't want to be dinner" True Handers. They've probably won any power struggle by this point.

                The Bahari are probably in bed with House Carna and/or seeking to convert them. Carna should be so sympathetic to their message. They probably also left the Sabbat without raising much fuss. The pro-Caine elements within the sect never liked them.

                The Sabbat Inquisition makes sense joining up with the Church of Caine. Every faith needs a strong arm, and beyond the church/inquisition synergy, infernalism is probably more tempting than ever thanks to recent upheavals and the Camarilla's increased interest in religion. The infernalists among the Sabbat are also scattering somewhere, and the fact they're already so practiced at avoiding discovery could give them an edge against the Second Inquisition.

                I can see Dominique Tourain, Vasantasena, and Lucita all going Anarch. Lucita might go Camarilla, though, if she's determined to remain a sellout. Or just doesn't want to oppose Fatimah.

                In good old fashioned Camarilla tradition, many of Mexico City's elders have likely accepted Fiorenza Savona as prince while seeking to manipulate her towards their own ends. And she needs them, hottest new thing among the Ventrue or no. They've had centuries to establish themselves in the city. Capturing it would have probably been way harder without their help. Venere Carboni and Elesier de Polanco are likely prominent names among those guys. Isidro de Saldanha is either sheriff or scourge now and all-too happy to clean up Mexico City's "animals and filth." Szechenyi Jolán is probably too weird to fit into the new order, though, and Charles Delmare seems committed to doing things the old Sabbat way.

                The Oradea League would seem to benefit from the Sabbat's disintegration as a new home for displaced Tzimisce, but on the other hand, the League might also be weaker than ever. They don't want to share power with neonates and many of their elders are probably feeling the Beckoning. They already weathered one Anarch Revolt and Inquisition without significantly adapting, so why should this time be different in their eyes?

                Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
                I've just ignored every single thing about V5.
                Then, er, don't post in a thread about V5?


                Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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                • #9
                  Sabbat? what Sabbat? it's only Anarchs here, fully devoted to the cause and all that crap, totally legit, here's my membership card

                  now move along before something b-...unfortunate happens to you



                  -

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                  • #10
                    While I have yet to play V5, I have basic outline for the Sabbat for when I do run V5 or until the Sabbat are properly explored. In my version, the Sect fractured in three (four if you count the True Hand as Sabbat), the Defectors, the Crusaders and the Loyalists. The Crusaders are pretty obvious. They're the ones that have to the Gehenna War. Mostly they're the passionate true believers of the Sword of Caine and had they not gone, most likely would have been among those killed by the SI. Most haven't returned but those few that have... well everybody's leery of them, even the remaining Sabbat as not only are they far more powerful than when they left, they are different. And everyone else finds them unnerving even if they don't fully understand why.

                    Then there are the Defectors, those that left the Sect for the Anarchs or the Camarilla. Just as a wave of Lasombra defected to the Cam, Vykos has led a wave of Tzimisce to the Anarchs for reasons similar to what CTPhipps wrote but also Vykos recognizing that it and it's followers need allies in these challenging times and isn't about to join the Camarilla.

                    Of course, many Defectors still maintain their beliefs and practices though many either tone it down in public or only do so in private. And there are Loyalists who are posing as Defectors, usually either to protect their hides in the short term or are serving as spies. Which itself has led to internal conflicts between Defectors and their new Sect mates who reject their beliefs and don't trust the ex-Sabbat.

                    Lastly is the Loyalists. These guys are the die-hard Sabbat with the old rot burnt away by the Beckoning, the Gehenna War and the Second Inquisition. The time of the Sabbat pack showing up in a Cam city, raising chaos and hell before running off to the next city is long gone. Those reckless and immature Sabbat are long dead along with their childish games, leaving behind the more cunning and intelligent monsters to rebuild. Most of the Inquisition and a good chunk of the Black Hand are among them.

                    Unfortunately, they've also lost a lot of their strongholds and leadership, leading to the Sect splintering into a loose network of terrorist cells. The title of Regent is right now being claimed by several Sabbat, effectively making a useless title. But if one does manage to come out on top and be recognized as Regent of the Sabbat and reunify the Sect, they could cause a lot of damage.

                    The Sabbat have become akin to mostly nomadic terrorist cells spread out across Anarch and Camarilla territories though there are a few cities that do remain under their control or where their surviving members lurk in the shadows, letting the other Sects think them gone. With everything that has happened, they've become much more patient and methodical in their activities. While there are still the more offensive minded packs that will invade and launch aggressive attacks on the Camarilla/Anarchs, some packs will spend months or even years infiltrating a city and it's Kindred population and in turn undermining them before striking. And a few of those packs may not even overtly attack the city when they finally do strike, instead using manipulation and subterfuge to turn factions within the city against one another and let them do the fighting for them.


                    Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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                    • #11
                      I love the mental image of Salubri Antitribu bodyguarding House Goratrix vampires. I somehow think that's the case, even if it's only because Tremere and Adonai are teamed up against Saulot or the White Worm.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #12
                        I have finally signed up purely for contributing to that thread, for now Greetings to everyone, I'm happy to start my forum's activity with this one.

                        Plot and connection to canon V20/V5 storyline.

                        First of all, what WW did to Sabbat and it's role in the metaplot in V5 partially resonates with ideas I had long before V5. I didn't welcome the shift of Sabbat tone in Revised compared to 2ED. The sect was described definitely more nuanced, complex and consistent than 2ED, but the change towards mafia with fangs resembled Camarilla too much, and the silliness of the young Sabbat was even worse than the silliness of Anarchs specifically due to their sect. Anarchs had an excuse of being silly lore-wise, it was a large part of their charm, if not being a political joke most of the time in most of the places (and I'm happy for Anarchs that this is finally gone and we can take them seriously). Sabbat neonates did not have the luxury to behave like modern visigoths in the Final nights but still they did. Sabbat's 2ed outright street ultraviolence was still conducted by tough packs with strong political stance and/or believable spiritual drive (Les Orphelins and the Wretched in MbN are nice examples).

                        The Gehenna and the Beckoning in V5 is what I'd present the Sabbat with in my own chronicle. It is quite obvious and literal. Sabbat needed not just a shakeup but a true test of faith. Look, folks, you are a 500 hundred years old sect designed to fight biblical monstrosities and literal blood gods in order to shackle the chains of Jyhad and become sole rulers of both Kin and herd; your top accomplishments on that path so far include decapitating armless merchants and staging freak carnivals for blood and giggles. I, for one, see some serious inconsistency. Please practice what the most of you've preached for the last 500 years.
                        So the Gehenna crusade is an awesome opportunity for me as a storyteller to burn the fat off Sabbat's soul.

                        Factions.

                        Most likely, Ultra-Conservatives, from the eldest to the youngest, are 100% packing their things and moving on to the conflict areas, with a very few exceptions of particularly old and cunning Lasombra (amici nocti much).

                        Moderates and some Status quo always represented the 'we are camarilla but scary' wing of the sect to me therefore they are the least likely to hooray into the antediluvian safari. They also seem to be the first ones to fall to the SI and Camarilla onslaught or simply defect instead of fighting. Good riddance.

                        Loyalist and nomads. Here is where things get interesting. From one hand, many of them could call themselves 'we are anarchs but scary' and, once things start crumbling apart, to defect to the Anarchs without a second thought. From the other, Loyalist culture always revolved around pack loyalty, not around archbishop' and surely not around black hand/inquisition authority. They also unironically called themselves the true heirs of Sabbat spirit. While there is no word in their agenda about actually taking up arms against the patriarchs they still might follow the crusaders out of sheer sect loyalty feeling or a majority of the said pack voting pro-Crusade. Surely, the matters would be settled mostly on pack level and decisions would vary from pack to pack, but I think they could be the third most numerous Sabbat faction to join the crusade. Worth noting that many of them could simply follow out of the sheer promise of tasty diableries. Another thing to stress out putting things into perspective is the number of nomads among the loyalists which I believe to be quite high. With Sabbat losing so much manpower and ground, the nomads and their experience could and should be vital to the sect' survival.

                        Inquisition and Black Hand. Since my favorite part of the sect, the revised version of BH, is going to hell after Izhim desertion and Jalan's death, I believe the Inquisition could gain more power in what remains of the sect by that point. They are also crucial to my take on the metaplot and how I am going to run the chronicle, but more on that later.

                        Clans and bloodlines.

                        A lot of this part is still to be formed up in my head but the general ideas are next:

                        Lasombra finally stepped down from their throne of de-facto leaders of the sect which is a change I cheerfully welcome. Tzimisce are on top now, albeit diminished by Old Clan desertion, and another clan I would like to fill in the numbers gap would be.. Salubri. That's what I would like to see, not what's going to happen (unfortunately). Take the Apocrypha of Salubri from V20 Dark Ages and you get the general idea. Personally I kind of envy the Clan of Death reunion as I always saw the remnants of Cappadocians as too fractured and incoherent. hating each other for no apparent reason, and the way writers simply united all the wayward children of Death is amazing. Why not something similar could not happen to the Unicorns? Let's involve a pilgrimage of numerous Salubri maybe even under Adonai's command or a newly awaken Methuselah like Nuriel or Rayzeel or both, into the jungles of Cambodia and coming back sporting new and impressive powers (borrow some mechanics from KotE Tsi-yu-mah Discipline) that would actually be something reminding Saulot's own travel and apprenticeship under Xue. Freed from Saulot's edicts they redefine themselves as noble, necessary monsters (Howl of the Devil-Tiger intensifies). Start building numbers, healers take over connection with mortals. Both of these branches dominate the Inquisition, with a heavy number of warrior ancillae going Black Hand. The BJD reports of Salubri resurgence around the world would serve my tweak well, as Salubri warriors are drawn to conflicts especially those fuelled by religion, therefore their numbers should grow drastically, at least in Sabbat's proportion.

                        I would also insist on a shift in Tzimisce towards Ordo Dracul outlook, building a better vampire and focusing on the development of new rites and powers in tandem with Salubri healers, powers appropriate to a more nomadic, martial and subtle Sabbat realities of V5. Not sure what to do with the Old Clan besides their desertion. Overall, however sad would be to part with the fantastic authentic Koldun flavor, I'd rather leave the scientists and bioengineers in the new Sabbat.

                        Lots of incoherent ideas regarding antitribu but I mostly agree with the often expressed opinion that most of them will defect to Anarchs or will go full autarki (except a-Ventrue, of course - their power will only grow).

                        Mood change.

                        Shovelheads and mass embraces are gone. Like, forever. Go and try to pull it off in Anarch territory, Lost Boy.

                        (Resurfacing) infernalism is (repeatedly) scorched by Salubri. This dance will last forever, won't it? Back to 2ed when infernalism was a threat.

                        Initiation rites are now the resemblance of black hand initiation - special forces applicants' trials.

                        No more dynamite-throwing, howling, idiotic chaotic Sabbat. That's either gone to Anarchs, going unbound or outright killed. (Also no more Path of Night joke, bring back the Road of Night).

                        No more fat and jaded intrigants who were powermongering for the sake of powermongering, paying only lip service to the Code of Milan. These are either in Camarilla, Ashirra, Anarchs or outright killed.

                        No more monstrousness for the sake of spooking mortals or younger vampires, that is hidden deep beneath the scholarly, the scientific and the zealous facades of new Sabbat (but is still there nonetheless).

                        It is now an army, a crusade, a secret service and a force of nature all in one. Sources of this vision: Black Hand (Lost Tribe, not the Patriarch Fan Club), Orthodox faction, Searing Wind subsect of Devil-Tigers (KotE), Lancea Sanctum and VII from VtR, the Pure tribes, especially Fire-Touched and Ivory Claws, from WtF, Unseelie Court from Changeling.

                        I will post more on the subject, covering relations with mortals, SI, geography, spirituality, structure and necessary plot anchors to make it all believable.
                        Thinking this sums up both my vision of V5 Sabbat in general and the aftermath of the gehenna war in particular, I would like to clumsily translate a quote of one combat vet's book she wrote after coming back from Donbas. "When we've returned, fellow citizens looked at us with a mix of fear and awe, and asked 'What's wrong with you? The war is over!' We smiled at them. We were the war."

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                        • #13
                          Comparison to other sects.

                          As others like C T Phipps mentioned, Sabbat thematically encroached both into Camarilla and Anarchs territory. I also agree with his sentiment toward more spiritual, educated and elite Sabbat.
                          Transfer of the eldest, most craftry and the most power-hungry of Sabbat to Camarilla will be a nice challenge for their entrenched elite. Transfer of the most rebellious, unrestrained and outspoken of the Sabbat to Anarchs will be a huge task for the Anarchs to deal with, and I am not sure who will influence each other more - maybe in a decade of two after V5 and Gehenna war the Anarchs will eventually evolve into 'Furores' ideals of Dark Ages' Anarchs. It also leaves room for the third sect, to focus on the war with antediluvians while old and young vampires tear each other happily under the constant deadly threat of the Second Inquisition. The current setup paints any domain as a haven where these two groups vie for power and influence, at the same time "crying over their dead girlfriend, overcoming the existential dread of leading a 12th generation/8th generation vampire' unlife". Out there in the dark, beyond the safety of the opulent aglomerations, the Sabbat survives, "crying over their dead vinculum brother/sister, overcoming the existential dread of leading a hopeless crusade against the eldritch blood gods".


                          Notable Cainites.

                          Who exactly would lead such a sect. The first guesses - Dastur Anosh, Kyle Strathcona, Di Polonia, Vincent Day, Ezekiel, Fabrizia Contreraz. I was quite disappointed in Tally defecting, but, again, not unexpected. All the more respect to Polonia, a true hawk. I wonder if Charles VI leaves for Ivory Tower, too.
                          Second guess - Vasantasena (the Loyalist dream does not necessarily overcome the drive to defeat Patriarchs), Qawiya al Ghaduba (who survived Tremere pogroms and being awakened in Jerusalem or around it by all the Crusade fuss). Other than that, I have no idea. Big names of vampiric history were always my weak spot. Maybe someone from outside, a former Camarilla Ventrue, defected Gangrel elders (GttS clearly states that more Gangrel are joining the sect after clan's out of Cam, and another book I forgot the name of states that someone in the sect brokered an acceptance of around dozen of Gangrel elders into NA Sabbat ranks.), remaining Ravnos (or even the 2e mysterious savior of Sabbat, Vestgeir himself.


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                          • #14
                            Another idea I got in terms of protection from manipulation by the Elders/Methuselahs/Ante during Gehenna crusade, is Tzimisce powers of Vicissitude. with the recent changes, I believe they treated it still like a disease or a virus which can spread out among packmates even after a single Vaulderie. How is that relevant to protection from being montycovened? I believe that would be kind of robbing Peter to pay Paul but a necessary compromise in terms of sect development. Basically, the Eldest becoming Tzimisce Fleshcrafting Network, akin to MMN. And every big Bad drank by a cainite tainted by vicissitude makes the patriarch stronger, while the shared antediluvian power protects the diablerist from being overriden by methuselah\s soul. Whether the Sabbat is aware of that 'protection', let alone it's price, or takes it for granted, a sign of favor from Caine himself, or a bunch of Elders of the sect are aware of it but proclaimed it to be a sign of Caine's favor, is up to ST.

                            A more nuanced approach would involve pre-set with Sabbat realizing all their sacrifices lead only to be possessed by the ones whom they defeated, and then Salubri/Tzimisce occultists step in with a brand new ritual which provides eternal anti-Methuselah mental protection to participants. Realizing one of their last advantages in the Jyhad - super-gen gehenna war heroes - disappearing with every possessed crusader - Sabbat has little to no choice.

                            Again, this is just an idea. Now, that I think of it, it's sounds too much for an already a sect on the brink of destruction.

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                            • #15
                              The Sabbat has gone dark.

                              Even the cities still in their clutches are dark , to hide their dimished numbers due to deserters - elders following the beckoning and just the young off to the war.
                              These surviving cities will eventually reform to spiritucratic (non-jyhaddistic) domains which will receive maybe an heavy influx of old-school settites.

                              Many centuries old domains are deserted now - even the camarilla spies in the sabbat are gone. there are still operating Sabbat cells - mostly Blackhand Pros consisting of Lasombra, Tzimisce, Brujah, Salubri, that are too old for beeing simple cannon fodder and to young to feel the beckoning and that know: There is little hope in battking the Ante´s if still a bunch of Ante -loyal Methusaleh are using the Camarilla. They don´t mind camarilla domains they perceive not to be Ante-pawns.



                              Emigrated successfullly from the "old" to the "new" sandboxy World of Darkness. Mostly playing Requiem, Awakening and the Lost.
                              Likes cheesecake

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