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The Sect vs Anarch case

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  • The Sect vs Anarch case

    Here's the thing about vampires: much of a vampire's existence is split between mafia-life covering up of masquerade breeches, and detective work. Masquerade breeches because they threaten to bring the wrath of humanity down upon you. Detective work because both vampires and those that seek to destroy them operate in secret. This is true regardless of whether the vampire is Anarch, Camarilla, or Sabbat. The only thing that changes is why you are doing the mafia cover-ups and detective work.

    If you are an Anarch, you are doing it because of common sense. Masquerade breeches and mystery enemies threaten your existence, so common sense demands that you deal with it.

    If you are a Cammy or Sabbat, then an elder likely gives you the order to do this, because his/her organizational reach allowed him to see it early, and he/she has common sense.

    Regardless of exactly why, you still end up doing exactly the same stuff. If you are in a sect, then you've got someone ordering you to do the thing you were going to do anyway, plus you've got someone with immense organizational power helping you from behind the scenes, even if only to save his own ancient ass. If you're an anarch, you're still doing the same things as Sect vampires, you've just got no one with organizational power helping you from behind the scenes.

    In between doing those things, you're a mind-controlling immortal and ridiculously free by mortal standards regardless of sect or lack thereof. Indeed, in a sect, the elders likely saw the problem early, meaning it could still be dealt with quickly and easily. Whereas as an Anarch, you will likely only see many problems when they have reached a crisis level requiring massive sacrifice of time, resources, and, by extension, freedom. Which means that, in a sect, you will typically have a much greater proportion of your time available to just be a mind-controlling immortal doing whatever the hell you want to do.

    So what, exactly, is the case for being an Anarch? What exactly are you free FROM? Are you free from fighting for territory? No, you end up doing that regardless. Are you free from covering up masquerade breeches? No, common sense demands that you do that despite no one ordering it. Are you free from performing detective work? No, the dangerous mysteries that constantly threaten a vampire's existence demand detective work because common sense.

    So, tell me, Anarchs, what are you free FROM? Because from where I'm standing, it only looks like you are free from being helped from behind the scenes by an organization with lots of information and political clout.

    You're like a farmer who curses the weather-service, and the seed and farm equipment stores for forcing him to do all this farmer stuff, then just ends up needing to make his own farm tools, and make his best guess about future weather conditions while also doing exactly the same work as every other farmer everywhere.
    Last edited by CajunKhan; 02-07-2020, 02:58 PM.

  • #2
    Anarchs within the camarilla generally want reform. Like they want to democratically elect the prince or at least move to get a nicer guy in charge. Unless you're drinking the v5 coolaid, that's the overwhelming majority of Anarchs, then you've got the free states.
    "Be your own boss" has an appeal to it. Even as it's a line peddled by multi-level marketing companies, people like 'muh freedom'. The USA mythologizes it's war for independence: The revolutionaries were heroes who captured the hearts and minds of the nation and the British were hated and evil. So too do the Anarchs look at how the free states were taken from the Cam.

    But Anarchs do work together and have bosses so...


    V5 is not VTM

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    • #3
      A more apt comparison would be between irl Anarchists and the government.

      The government do bring nice things like laws, education, firefighting, and various social services.

      Anarchists however may feel that the government is too detached from your local citizen and that whatever the government achieves could be performed better if everything was run communally instead of those big oppressive organisations that modern era states.

      They also often dislike the notion of having to abide to whatever arbitrary rule the local state forced into them even thought they had no choice in becoming a member of those organisations nor a real choice to "quit".
      Safe for emigrating to another country with more or less the same aforementioned issues.

      Obviously the pre V5 similarities here are obvious.

      Now on V5, one has to remember that the Sabbat has been erased by God and The Camarilla has renounced to be the world government for all vampires.

      In fact you now have to earned it to get "citizenship" in the Camarilla.

      So the main reason most lick in V5 are Anarch is simply because they literally have no other choice. Simple as that.

      So the dynamic between Anarchs and between Anarchs and the Camarilla are quite different in that game.
      Last edited by Morbus; 02-07-2020, 03:38 PM.

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      • #4
        The sheriff kills a neonate's mortal friend because she was part of his domain and sees the neonate as infringing upon that. There is shit the neonate can realistically do about it besides rage and mourn.

        An elder needs a patsy in their latest scheme and decides to frame a neonate for doing something bad to a rival elder. They get "caught" and punished by having their hands chopped off, their ghouls killed, or something else that fits their definition of "one bad night."

        The harpies publicly ridicule a neonate in Elysium because the neonate's committed a witless 18th century etiquette faux pas, or maybe just because they're feeling bored. Everyone laughs at the neonate, and if they frenzy, they can get executed for violating the sanctity of Elysium.

        You want to feed at a hot new nightclub, but an elder has claimed it as their territory and will do horrible things to if you if you're caught poaching.

        You do something to piss off an elder completely by accident (maybe you just wore an outfit that reminded them of a mortal mother who was cruel to them) and they decide to kill your mortal mother for ha has. Maybe they want to drag it out and force her into prostitution.

        Your city's throwing a festival that'll be lots of fun with lots of easy feeding. The sheriff calls you up to their office, then rams a stake in your chest and has a ghoul store you in a shed like a piece of kindling, because they think you'll just cause trouble and make maintaining the Masquerade harder.

        The Second Inquisition is coming to town. An elder decides to lead the hunters to your haven so they can kill a vampire, tout "mission accomplished" and move on.

        An elder acts in a way you find odiously offensive because that was the social norm in an earlier era, like calling you "boy" if you're black, and there's squat you can do about it.

        You want recognition among your fellow Kindred for doing something awesome you worked really hard on, and an elder publicly shits all over your accomplishment, and gets everyone else to shit all over it too, because they think what you did was "too new," don't want you to feel too proud of yourself ("humility is good for the young ones"), or they were just feeling bored.

        An elder lusts after you and manipulates circumstances to force you into a blood bond, then emotionally, physically, and sexually abuses you until another toy catches their eye. Maybe someone you care about.

        You want an elder to die or retire so you can finally move up in the Camarilla, but they are never going to die or retire.


        All of that and more is what Anarchs want to be free from.

        Elders are not your friends.
        Last edited by False Epiphany; 02-07-2020, 07:35 PM.


        Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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        • #5
          There can be no doubt that the Anarchs have the moral high ground. They are a rappresentation of the what is generally perceived as good in a society. We can discuss as much as we want, but let’s say that it should be an easy common ground saying that democracy is better than fascism, feudalism kingodms, or theocracy.


          BUT

          1) When in comes to real politics, Anarchs simply do not work.


          The first Anarch Rebellion, while it had momentum at the beginning, crumbled under the organization and the alliance of the Elders. The Treaty of Thorns is not an agreement among peers, its’ a term of surrender. It was such at the time and it was such later: for 500 years the Camarilla was the uncontested status quo of the undead society.
          Even more most top anarchs joined the Sabbat with the Treaty of Maiorca, and the one who didn’t went back in the rancks met a satyrical end.
          Yes, I’m talking of Tyler over there, Blood Bound the Helena and playing bodyguard for an elder far worse than Hardestadt ever was. To the poin that in Chicago By Night Tyler is a ally of Lodin. It was Tyler who killed Procet, helping Lodin beating the Anarchs.
          This is a leit-motiv, since the very 1 edition.

          In Chicago By Night 1ed Tyler was blood bound to Helena, who was the secret master of the prince. And the other Anarchs?

          Juggler was Tyler puppet (and Helena main candidate to lead the Anarchs)
          Hinds’ anarchs were jaded old fart that dropped out of the fight and were more prone to play poker togheter than plotting to overthrow the Prince.
          Maldavis was the sad instrument of Elders much more powerful than her. As a whole her rebellion was nothing more than the next sparring between Menele and Helena, and Maldavis rebellion worked only because Inynaga and Khalid sustained her with blood and information, and because Annabelle cock-blocked Lodin, binding his hands. As soon as Annabelle got what she wanted the rebellion ended, and Menele decided to sacrifice the whole Anarch movement just to be sure that Helena would think that Annabelle was no under her control (while Menele got the her first).
          The Nihilist… well, boys playing among the adults.

          And this was true even later. In Chicago By Night 2 Carlyle was the puppet of and elder Ventrue who was manipulating him. In Washington By Night the Anarch movement is pretty much non existant, and Velvet is doomed to fail. The same goes for New York By Nights, where the Anarch Baron, Boss Callihan, is blood bounded to Hellen Panhard, the future Princess of New York.

          So since the beginning (from the very first Chicago By Night), the Anarchs were meant to be loser. They never stood a chance.

          2) This is true also for what came later in Anarch history, both the Brujah council and the Anarch Free States have been an ultimate disaster.
          The Brujah council birthed stalinism and repression, and very soon Ventrue and Tzimisce hijacked the power in Russia. While I have no problem declaring myself a marxist I doubt I would have liked living in Russia.
          In the end, the Brujah Council succumbed to a very important notion in the world of darkness. It’s a lesson that England learnt when Mithras arised after Hastings, the Assamite when Ur-Shulgi awakened in Petra, or the Carpathian’s people when the Eldest walked there for the first time: when the ancient gods of blood enter the scene all that you have built is nothing.

          The Free States were… well… not good I suppose. They were born through a series of lies (Salvador never killed the Prince of Los Angeles, Don Sebastian was killed by its own sire) and were born in a “easier” stage than most.
          Don Sebastian was 74 years old, Vannevar Thomas, the prince of San Francisco,was 164 years old…
          Not really elders, you know.
          In fact the biggest lie of all was the freedom from the Elders. Not only the true master of Los Angeles was alive and well directing everything behind the scenes (Christopher is still the most powerful vampire there), but Los Angeles also became the target of ancient Methuselahs (Brunhilde, Iontius, and Le Fanou).
          The place was hell, overcrowded, violent and so on. Not really the paradise that was promised and in no way better than Chicago, New York or any other place that wasn’t Mexico City.
          Even more, as soon as the need for unity faded away civil war errupted, each one at each other throars, the Hermanidad vs the Crypt Sons and so on.
          The Anarch Free State dies in a miserable way. Not only Petrodon created an army of manchurian inside the States, but the Kue-jin utterly crushed the dream and the Anarch had to be saved from Madame Guil. The heroes of the revolt, like Tara and Garcia, sold out, and so on.


          3) And here we come to the point.

          The true role of Anarchs is not working by their self, but making sure that the Camarilla works.
          In truth Anarchs are basically a gear in a system of check and balance that assure that the Ivory Tower will not go back to the pre-Thorn Consensus. The Prince doesn’t blood bound all of his subject, dissent is mostly accepted, and even the most powerful prince must “give something” to the masses. Even Vitel, the most dispotic of all princess, was generous with hunting grounds, and in Washington, as long as you didn’t stepped on the Prince or the Pontifex toes, was pretty much a luna parka where you could do pretty much anything and achieve as much influence as you wanted.
          And believe me, there was no things such as a “conclave”, where everyone could vote, in the middle ages world of vampires. It should be without doubt that modern princes are far more permissive that the one that ruled over europe. No matter how much Petrodon cryed, the Justicars were not there to destroy the Free States, because it would have been a bad move.

          The true role of Anarchs so was to be the progressive side of the Camarilla, the check that would prevent the Ivory Tower to go completely back at what it was before Thorns.

          It can be compared to the role of Communism in Western Europe.
          Western Europe never had communist experiences, but it had strong Communist and Socialist parties, so it was in Italy, so it was in France, so it was in almost al Northern Europe. While there is no doubt that was there was on the other side of the Berlin wall was not the worker paradise that was promised by Marx, it is true that its existence forced western democracy to “moderate” themeselves. Worker rights, social activism, better conditions for women, in Europe they were mostly conquered thanks to the egemonic influence of the left-side political spectrum, that was “enforced” by the fact that on the other side there was the Soviet Union.
          This was true also in America, even if on a more limited degree. Social unrest was more focalized on Civil Rights, but even so the fact that half the world was not capitalist forced America to try to sell a better produt. It’s no coincidence that has soon as the East block approched its end, there was a major turning point to the right in American politics.


          Now, even so, their fascination came from being without doubt the moral high ground.
          The only problem is that in the World of Darkness the moral hight ground is losing.

          In every line the bad guys (Sabbat, Technocracy, Wyrm, Oblivion, Yama Kings and so on) are winning.

          So in the end what the Anarchs can offer you is knowing that you are right, and knowing that you will end in dust and blood.

          This was a very important point of Revised. The only thing that you can do is individual action.

          The Traditions will not win the Ascension War. The Anarchs and the Camarilla will not triumph against the Sabbat. The Apocalypse coming from the Wyrm is inevitable, and Oblivion is working slowly but surely.

          What you can do is taking a small angle of world, a little piece of reality, and try to do the difference there. As a mage you cannot win the battle for reality, but you can make a better reality for your community. As a Werewolf you are not capable of stopping the impending doom, but you can still fight to save that river from pollution. In vampire you can't avoid Gehenna, but you can still try to be a decent being.
          Last edited by Undead rabbit; 02-07-2020, 06:38 PM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
            So what, exactly, is the case for being an Anarch? What exactly are you free FROM? Are you free from fighting for territory? No, you end up doing that regardless. Are you free from covering up masquerade breeches? No, common sense demands that you do that despite no one ordering it. Are you free from performing detective work? No, the dangerous mysteries that constantly threaten a vampire's existence demand detective work because common sense.

            So, tell me, Anarchs, what are you free FROM? Because from where I'm standing, it only looks like you are free from being helped from behind the scenes by an organization with lots of information and political clout.

            You're like a farmer who curses the weather-service, and the seed and farm equipment stores for forcing him to do all this farmer stuff, then just ends up needing to make his own farm tools, and make his best guess about future weather conditions while also doing exactly the same work as every other farmer everywhere.
            Resident Anarch apologist here and I recommend you check out my WHERE I READ ANARCHS UNBOUND: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...chy-in-the-wod

            The explanation for what the Anarchs are rebelling from is best handled by Nines Rodriguez in V:TM:B and I will share it here then give my own.



            The problem is a lot of fans attempt to go very complex in their explanation when it's very simple.They also look at the Tradition of the Masquerade or Creation when it's the Tradition of Domain and Destruction.

            Why do the Anarchs rebel?

            Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
            -Roy Batty

            If you are Embraced as a Kindred in the Camarilla, you are a slave. If you think I'm being hyperbolic, let me establish the fact that your sire must have gotten permission for your creation and you are now beholden to them until you have paid off whatever debts or boons they think are appropriate for your very existence. In the best cases, this is because you are someone they love or have a unhealthy fixation on (that can also be the worst). In the worst cases, this is because you have some economic or social value they intend to exploit up to and including Blood Bonding you to submission.

            If your sire DIDN'T have permission to create you, you are casteless in the Camarilla and your life is now forfeit. Your best bet is to flee from the domain you were born in and try to find some place that will take you in. That usually requires the Prince to gain another hold over you as the permission to settle in a city is something given only to someone who has value. In Vampire: The Masquerade; Coteries and Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines you wake up to becoming the lickspittle of either an Elder who vouches for your life or Prince La Croix and both times you can be executed outright. It is also the case of Ashes to Ashes where you are immediately framed by Ballard for the murder of Lodin because as outsiders, you are the scapegoat for all crimes in the city.

            For most Americans and Europeans, the discovery that you are now subject to a feudal society where your life exists solely in value to a geroncracy that has no care whether you live or die is a sobering one. The Camarilla is the worst elements of both capitalism and royal courts with the vast majority of vampires being born as peasants under the control of government that they have no say in or protections by. This latter isn't quite true as it was even worse in the Dark Ages but who enforced that Princes COULDN'T arbitrarily kill or Blood Bond any newcomer vampire and had to contrive a reason to destroy them? The Anarchs.

            "I'm in a hostile environment. I'm totally unprepared. And I'm surrounded by a bunch of guys who probably want to kick my ass. I feel like I'm back in high school."
            -Johnny Cage

            The Anarchs gather together in coteries and resist the Prince as best they can because for the majority of them--it is not about anything so lofty as freedom. It is about survival. All vampires are competitors against one another for blood, resources, feeding ground, and Domain. Older vampires want nothing to do with Anarchs, Neonates outside of their Lineage, Caitiff, Thin Bloods, or potential rivals. As such, from the moment you're Embraced, you're in a complex murderous Jyhad that is 1000x more violent than your mortal life unless you just got back from Afghanistan.

            * You CAN become useful.
            * You CAN survive if you're smart
            * You CAN survive if you're an asskisser, liar, ruthless, or both
            * You CAN claw your way up the Camarilla's ranks if you're willing to lie, cheat, murder, steal, and maybe diablerize long enough until you're an Elder

            But even then, you probably have to throw under the bus every friend, ally, and loved one you've ever made to live in an Ivory Tower surrounded by people who you hate and hate you but are the only friends you have.

            Or you can ride or die with your friends who have your back.

            That is what it means to be an Anarch.

            OUT OF GAME: For a much more simpler and less speech-like explanation, Anarchs are that way because they are usually the poor and powerless vampires of the game. As not having much wealth, the Camarilla often has the Sheriff and Scourges abuse them. Caitiff and Thin Bloods are subject to purges because they have no defense or rights innately. Camarilla elders and princes can and do make use of Anarchs as well as Neonates like criminals in Cyberpunk but generally you're part of the Anarchs because it's a gang you can join that appreciates strength in numbers versus any ideology.
            Last edited by CTPhipps; 02-07-2020, 07:25 PM.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post


              The Anarchs gather together in coteries and resist the Prince as best they can because for the majority of them--it is not about anything so lofty as freedom. It is about survival. All vampires are competitors against one another for blood, resources, feeding ground, and Domain. Older vampires want nothing to do with Anarchs, Neonates outside of their Lineage, Caitiff, Thin Bloods, or potential rivals. As such, from the moment you're Embraced, you're in a complex murderous Jyhad that is 1000x more violent than your mortal life unless you just got back from Afghanistan.

              * You CAN become useful.
              * You CAN survive if you're smart
              * You CAN survive if you're an asskisser, liar, ruthless, or both
              * You CAN claw your way up the Camarilla's ranks if you're willing to lie, cheat, murder, steal, and maybe diablerize long enough until you're an Elder

              But even then, you probably have to throw under the bus every friend, ally, and loved one you've ever made to live in an Ivory Tower surrounded by people who you hate and hate you but are the only friends you have.

              Or you can ride or die with your friends who have your back.

              That is what it means to be an Anarch.

              .
              That's really not the case, in fact Anarch domains are far more violent and death rate among neonates is sky-high. While is true that sheriff, scourge and so on can be ass, not everyone of them are bad cops, and more importantly, Blood Hunt is called scarcely, since it is a very problematic political tool, used only when the time is right.
              On the contrary, since Anarch Baronies tends to become gang-lands like The Wire, death rate is high. Killing a vampire in the Camarilla is one of the most serious offence that can be punished. On the other hand, the Tradition of Destruction is... well... not really upheld by the Anarchs.
              Living in an Anarch domain is like living in a place were there is no police, it's your friends against the friends of your enemy, no one is rushing in to stop you. On the other hands murder in Camarilla lands is strictly forbidden, and the Traditions are enforced. It's pretty much like Los Angeles at the time of the crack wars.
              As far as safety goes, Camarilla is the best when it comes to survival.







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              • #8
                Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post

                That's really not the case, in fact Anarch domains are far more violent and death rate among neonates is sky-high.
                Unless you mean the Anarch Free States during the time period of Los Angeles by Night and even then only some of them, that's not true. We already have a new Los Angeles under Isaac Abrams' Council of Barons that is far more peaceful. LA in Bloodlines was already a place where Barons like Isaac and Therese ruled far more effectively than the old sourcebook Gang Lords. Even then that WAS set during the height of the LA crack epidemic.

                See Chicago by Night 5th Edition's East Chicago where Anita Wainwright rules by mutual respect.

                While is true that sheriff, scourge and so on can be ass, not everyone of them are bad cops, and more importantly, Blood Hunt is called scarcely, since it is a very problematic political tool, used only when the time is right.
                Unless you're a Thin Blood or Caitiff or Unpresented in which case it's the default. See, again, the existence of the Scourge.

                On the contrary, since Anarch Baronies tends to become gang-lands like The Wire, death rate is high. Killing a vampire in the Camarilla is one of the most serious offence that can be punished. On the other hand, the Tradition of Destruction is... well... not really upheld by the Anarchs.
                Except when it is. See Anarchs Unbound and the fact Anarchs have trials by jury and punish by exile or other means.

                Living in an Anarch domain is like living in a place were there is no police, it's your friends against the friends of your enemy, no one is rushing in to stop you. On the other hands murder in Camarilla lands is strictly forbidden, and the Traditions are enforced. It's pretty much like Los Angeles at the time of the crack wars.

                As far as safety goes, Camarilla is the best when it comes to survival.
                The Traditions ARE murder. They exist to justify the Prince destroying anyone who sires without permission, does not present themselves, threatens the Masquerade (even if they don't know about it), or violates their domain.
                Last edited by CTPhipps; 02-07-2020, 09:22 PM.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • #9
                  When it comes to the Council of Barons, what book is that in? Or is it just from the web series?

                  I have been running it as a council but if there are other resources I would like to take a look.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by omenseer View Post
                    When it comes to the Council of Barons, what book is that in? Or is it just from the web series?

                    I have been running it as a council but if there are other resources I would like to take a look.
                    Just the (canonical) web series.

                    Beckett's Jyhad Diary is the last official supplement and still had MacNeil as nominally in charge.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post

                      If you are an Anarch, you are doing it because of common sense. Masquerade breeches and mystery enemies threaten your existence, so common sense demands that you deal with it.

                      If you are a Cammy or Sabbat, then an elder likely gives you the order to do this, because his/her organizational reach allowed him to see it early, and he/she has common sense.
                      the camarilla is built around the masquerade,
                      you are required by law to maintain it (by arbitrary standards arbitrarily set by the prince and the elders),

                      there's a whole economy behind it,
                      the Prince and the elders use it to set up and justify their own laws and use it as leverage (blackmail) on youngsters (and sometimes on other elders),
                      youngsters can also use it as leverage, by acting as 'witnesses' to masquerade breaches (again, breaches by arbitrary standards) and slipping the information in some elders' ear


                      the sabbat is more complicated, since they don't recognize the masquerade in any official or even formal capacity,
                      openly admitting to caring about it (or about humanity) is political suicide for sect officials,

                      as stated in canon, the masquerade cleaning is handled mostly by elders and templars (secretly, of course), and the youngsters are not required to maintain it (outside of certain extreme cases, that are not labeled as masquerade breaches, but as 'revealing sect secrets' or 'putting the sect in danger')

                      other than elders, there are certain dioceses that are appointed to do the dirty work, these cells are usually led by an official who doesn't care about political advancement,
                      and the packs that compose the cell usually benefit from a few special perks, but also have to deal with certain handicaps (such as an overly oppressive leader as is the case in Mexico city)

                      So what, exactly, is the case for being an Anarch? What exactly are you free FROM?
                      you are free from the above,

                      among the anarchs, there's no economy tied to the masquerade,
                      there are no laws (arbitrary laws) set up and backed up by the masquerade,
                      how you handle the masquerade is your own affair, and if someone else is bothered by it, they have to back up their annoyance with strength or influence in the anarch circles,
                      oherwise they'll have to clean up by themselves

                      in the camarilla, if your masquerade breach is revealed, it can cost you reputation, your influence, any support you had from third parties, and (if you don't have the necessary boons to cash in) a swift execution

                      in the anarchs, you don't lose all that for breaking the masquerade, even if some anarch leader wants your head over the breach, you still have whatever support/influence you had before the breach

                      and, unlike in the sabbat, if you chose to maintain the masquerade and care about human matters, you're at no risk of losing face
                      Last edited by Pleiades; 02-08-2020, 05:55 AM.


                      -

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                      • #12
                        Well since the Sabbat got put on the bus the main reason for Anarchs to cower under the Cams skirts has vanished, at the same time the Cam has become stupid, insular and decrepit. So due to circumstances they had jack all to do with Anarchs are living the high life at the moment. Give em 10 years and they'll essentially be the old version of the Camarilla ie. without the self-crippling behaviour, moronitis and weird new religious angle.

                        Unless of course the Sabbat return and steamroll them and they and the Cam are forced back together in order to survive yet again.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Damian May View Post
                          Well since the Sabbat got put on the bus the main reason for Anarchs to cower under the Cams skirts has vanished, at the same time the Cam has become stupid, insular and decrepit. So due to circumstances they had jack all to do with Anarchs are living the high life at the moment. Give em 10 years and they'll essentially be the old version of the Camarilla ie. without the self-crippling behaviour, moronitis and weird new religious angle.

                          Unless of course the Sabbat return and steamroll them and they and the Cam are forced back together in order to survive yet again.
                          Are the Camarilla in a bad position? They are now completely made of the rich and powerful with all of its old clans replaced with new ones.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • #14
                            But they're stupid and gave up on their monopoly to give their enemies an advantage.That's a bad position. You might as well surrender all your territories to your greatest enemy in a conquest-only game of civ,
                            Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 02-08-2020, 06:59 AM.


                            V5 is not VTM

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                              But they're stupid and gave up on their monopoly to give their enemies an advantage.That's a bad position. You might as well surrender all your territories to your greatest enemy in a conquest-only game of civ,
                              That's a dumb argument. The Camarilla made the correct choice in driving out the Brujah. I say that as an Anarch lover. The Camarilla was always going to be challenged and undermined by the people who viewed them as the enemy because the Camarilla has no reason to want to change. So, they get rid of their biggest enemies and the root of the Anarch cause to consolidate their power. Now they're bigger, stronger, and more united than ever.

                              They have external enemies in the new Anarch Sect but they don't have any INTERNAL enemies.

                              Better still, Camarilla Princes can just order the destruction of Anarchs in their cities without a reason. They don't have to pretend anymore that there's any reason not to.

                              The Camarilla is at its richest, most influential, and most dangerous. They plan to be the only survivors of the 21st century as a sect.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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