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  • #16
    Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post

    Err... VTR has a fuckton of bloodlines.
    What I mean is they want the game to have less clans, like VtR 1ed initial approach. VtR have 5 clans only, bloodlines is another thing.
    Ex: hecata instead of 5 clans.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by blailton View Post

      What I mean is they want the game to have less clans, like VtR 1ed initial approach. VtR have 5 clans only, bloodlines is another thing.
      Ex: hecata instead of 5 clans.
      I get your point but I disagree becuase what V5 tries is to oversimplify and reduce everything to street level while what VTR did with the bloodlines is the opposite make the game more complex by adding a mechanic wich acts as a subclass/subclan (That said I think that despite the beuty of this mechanic that I love they overdid it with the number of bloodlines as while a lot of them are interesting not all are).

      Now about the Hecata I agree with you that they don´t make any sense as it´s the equivalent of the Nazis making an alliance with the jews , let´s remember that the giovanni used to make a party each time they hunted one proclaiming to have genocided them becuase that was the last.


      https://www.deviantart.com/cicerondixit/gallery

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post

        I get your point but I disagree becuase what V5 tries is to oversimplify and reduce everything to street level while what VTR did with the bloodlines is the opposite make the game more complex by adding a mechanic wich acts as a subclass/subclan (That said I think that despite the beuty of this mechanic that I love they overdid it with the number of bloodlines as while a lot of them are interesting not all are).

        Now about the Hecata I agree with you that they don´t make any sense as it´s the equivalent of the Nazis making an alliance with the jews , let´s remember that the giovanni used to make a party each time they hunted one proclaiming to have genocided them becuase that was the last.
        I agree with you.

        To make myself clear my intention was not shit VtR.
        I did not like they sucking entire mechanics from VtR, though, like the dumber version of Touchstones.

        I was just pointing that the game developers, with obvious preference for VtR, are trying too hard to push down our throats a Mesquiem rpg.

        VtR have 5 clans because Ravnos, Toreador, Brujah and all social clans can, in their opinion, be narrowed down as the Let's-Fuck-Clan (Deeva).

        So, those developers just created the Hecata, the Necromancy-and-GoreLite-Stuff clan putting Samedi Bahari etc in the same bag and proclaiming it make all the sense in the world.

        And, of couse, knowing it gonna backlash, this change, like all others, come with a sidebar saying "Wait!! Not all Bahari are in the Hecata. Not all Giovanni are holding hands with his arch-enemys." This was happened before with the "Wait not all eldes are gone" or "Not all Sabbat was extermined" and "Not all citys will me expurged from vampires in the hand of SI", "Not all Lasombra choose to be under the Ventrue feet", and soon "Not all Tzimice lost vicissitude to have Protean" and "Not all powers from Matuselahs need to be writen in any book".
        Last edited by blailton; 02-08-2020, 07:46 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
          This one flew under the radar a bit for me because the Giovanni have gotta be the most peripheral clan there is (They've really got a whole 'leave us alone' kinda vibe to em) But when I read up and found all the different varieties of corpse fuckers had decided to hold hands and join together, even though they hate eachother, and that they now have the same blood, I've been left aghast.

          What the fuck? Can someone explain how this works? (or doesn't). Seems like another case of idiot ball.
          Why join the Camarilla when you can have your own necromancy and banking sect?


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post
            Some end of Revised and some pre-V5 history with respect to the Nagaraja.
            Assuming what was said in the V5 info is essentially exactly how it was worded, they most likely refer to the ghost nuke in Enoch that wraiths set for the Tal'Mahe'Ra, which set off the Sixth Maelstrom, if I recall all the metaplot correctly. The bulk of the Nagaraja left were supposed to have found succor within the Green Courts of Korea, though, so I would expect only a handful of them among the Hecata, if that, assuming most/all of those in the "Western" world were not exterminated for potential Masquerade breaches. Regardless, despite their relative strangeness among the other clans and bloodlines of death, this would seem to be their best option for survival in Europe and North America.


            "At the risk of sounding like a murder hobo"

            Attributed to Nyrufa.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Inertial Frame View Post

              Assuming what was said in the V5 info is essentially exactly how it was worded, they most likely refer to the ghost nuke in Enoch that wraiths set for the Tal'Mahe'Ra, which set off the Sixth Maelstrom, if I recall all the metaplot correctly. The bulk of the Nagaraja left were supposed to have found succor within the Green Courts of Korea, though, so I would expect only a handful of them among the Hecata, if that, assuming most/all of those in the "Western" world were not exterminated for potential Masquerade breaches. Regardless, despite their relative strangeness among the other clans and bloodlines of death, this would seem to be their best option for survival in Europe and North America.
              I think this may be a retcon because the largest retcons for the game so far in V5 has been removing every reference to the Kuei-Jin. They no longer took over San Fransisco and San Diego for example.

              Mind you, the Nagaraja's Necromancy talents are designed to allow them to feed on less than fresh corpses as well. In fact, it's probably much easier to get fresh corpses as a whole than it is fresh blood.
              Last edited by CTPhipps; 02-08-2020, 07:57 PM.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                I think this may be a retcon because the largest retcons for the game so far in V5 has been removing every reference to the Kuei-Jin. They no longer took over San Fransisco and San Diego for example.

                Mind you, the Nagaraja's Necromancy talents are designed to allow them to feed on less than fresh corpses as well. In fact, it's probably much easier to get fresh corpses as a whole than it is fresh blood.
                What did happen in San Fransisco to drive Thomas out then?

                I like the Wan Kuei and with only a few tweaks I think they would be fine.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by omenseer View Post

                  What did happen in San Fransisco to drive Thomas out then?

                  I like the Wan Kuei and with only a few tweaks I think they would be fine.
                  1. The Second Inquisition is what has been said.

                  2. Maybe but I understand Paradox has two things they hate: Kuei Jin and Ravnos.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    1. The Second Inquisition is what has been said.

                    2. Maybe but I understand Paradox has two things they hate: Kuei Jin and Ravnos.
                    Sadness and I know I keep saying this, but where is this mentioned? For both points.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                      I think this may be a retcon because the largest retcons for the game so far in V5 has been removing every reference to the Kuei-Jin. They no longer took over San Fransisco and San Diego for example.

                      Mind you, the Nagaraja's Necromancy talents are designed to allow them to feed on less than fresh corpses as well. In fact, it's probably much easier to get fresh corpses as a whole than it is fresh blood.
                      Huh. Seems... limiting... to me. It feels like they're skipping something that they could leave as a vague background menace, like they're doing with the Sabbat for the foreseeable future, instead of outright writing them out. Even if they did turn them into "standard" vampires, the Courts of Asia would still be better served in the game world than erased by dev fiat. And, as I noted first, just leave them in the background with "plotting!" and big question marks about what they're planning, let alone what they are.

                      As to Nagaraja Necromancy, they should be able to feed from wraiths, too, but that doesn't change the dis- and misinformation spread about the Nagaraja's feeding habits.


                      "At the risk of sounding like a murder hobo"

                      Attributed to Nyrufa.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by omenseer View Post

                        Sadness and I know I keep saying this, but where is this mentioned? For both points.
                        1. BD Walters said in one of the episodes of Season 3 that the Camarilla was fleeing the Second Inquisition in San Fransisco. He also has said it and Jason Carl on Twitter.

                        2. The Camarilla book has the Camarilla control Tokyo but no mention of the Kuei-Jin at all. We also have had Matthew Dawkins explain why the Wan Kuei are really-really hard to rewrite without totally changing their concept and that he (or Onyx Path) have no intention of using them.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                          Now about the Hecata I agree with you that they don´t make any sense as it´s the equivalent of the Nazis making an alliance with the jews , let´s remember that the giovanni used to make a party each time they hunted one proclaiming to have genocided them becuase that was the last.
                          Most Giovanni had nothing to do with what the family did to the Cappadocians, because they hadn't been born yet. Besides the machinations of the likes of the Capuchin (and probably senior Harbingers in the loop), the Family Reunion happened because the younger members of the bloodlines were more interested in working together than pursuing a grudge that some of their ancestors started in the Renaissance.

                          Originally posted by Inertial Frame View Post

                          Huh. Seems... limiting... to me. It feels like they're skipping something that they could leave as a vague background menace, like they're doing with the Sabbat for the foreseeable future, instead of outright writing them out. Even if they did turn them into "standard" vampires, the Courts of Asia would still be better served in the game world than erased by dev fiat. And, as I noted first, just leave them in the background with "plotting!" and big question marks about what they're planning, let alone what they are.

                          As to Nagaraja Necromancy, they should be able to feed from wraiths, too, but that doesn't change the dis- and misinformation spread about the Nagaraja's feeding habits.
                          Maybe I've just overlooked it all, but I can't think of any reference in V5 to what's going on between Central Asia and Japan, besides Nagaraja and the Ministry being there. Furthermore, Dee, in the Anarch book, mentions trouble with the "Chinese vampires" in California. I suspect that Kuei-Jin as we know them aren't going to be in V5, but there's a massive space that's been left open. Whether they're leaving it open for something new, like another kind of vampire or local sects or they just lack the knowledge or inclination to write about South, East and Southeast Asia remains to be seen. Japan, on the other hand, has Kindred, the Camarilla, Anarchs etc.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post
                            Maybe I've just overlooked it all, but I can't think of any reference in V5 to what's going on between Central Asia and Japan, besides Nagaraja and the Ministry being there. Furthermore, Dee, in the Anarch book, mentions trouble with the "Chinese vampires" in California. I suspect that Kuei-Jin as we know them aren't going to be in V5, but there's a massive space that's been left open. Whether they're leaving it open for something new, like another kind of vampire or local sects or they just lack the knowledge or inclination to write about South, East and Southeast Asia remains to be seen. Japan, on the other hand, has Kindred, the Camarilla, Anarchs etc.
                            If that's the case, and I wouldn't know either way, then maybe they are doing the smart thing with the Kuei-Jin, Wan Kuei, or whatever other term for the Hungry Ghosts they want to use. Hopefully they do something meaningful with them that doesn't necessarily retcon the basic aspects of them, like the broad strokes of their society, without also doing it in a ridiculously insensitive manner. Not that the original book was ridiculously so, but there were definite issues with Kindred of the East and I don't just mean with the incomplete systems in their Disciplines.


                            "At the risk of sounding like a murder hobo"

                            Attributed to Nyrufa.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                              Now about the Hecata I agree with you that they don´t make any sense as it´s the equivalent of the Nazis making an alliance with the jews , let´s remember that the giovanni used to make a party each time they hunted one proclaiming to have genocided them becuase that was the last.
                              It's a complicated matter. As I and others said, the Giovanni weren't just hit by the Harbingers and the Second Inquisition but by their own Childer as well. Again, the younger Giovanni were beginning to chafe under the rigid structure of the Clan and the iron-grip on power the Elder Giovanni had. This pushed them to reaching out to reaching out to the other Clans of Death, looking for lore and power. This in turn provided allies for the Harbingers within the Giovanni and of course as I mentioned, there was Elder manipulations going on in this. And the Capuchin's fingerprints are all over the Hecata and their rebirth. One commentator in book expresses the belief that some Hecata have that he has more or less replaced Augustus as the overall leader of the Clan of Death, even if he does so completely in the shadows.

                              And while the Harbingers do hate the Giovanni for their actions, they hate Cappadocius as well for the whole Feast of Folly. In fact, in the book by their own admission, they were going after the Giovanni less for wiping out their kin whom they hate little love for but because Augustus and his Childer beat them to the punch of kill Cappadocius. In fact, Lore of the Bloodlines which was the first account of the Bloodline in any real depth, has them repeatedly mentioning that they don't hate the Giovanni for killing Cappadocius and nearly wiping out their clan, they hate them for taking their vengeance away for them and for ultimately being unwitting puppets of Cappadocius. And for some, it's more the latter than the former.

                              So for them, with Augustus and his immediate Childer gone, the direct puppets of Cappadocius, as well as a position of influence over many younger Giovanni, they have good reasons not to wipe out the rest of them. Not to mention that the Capuchin is involved in all this and they greatly respect him for aiding them while in their exile in the Shadowlands. So if he asked them to stop killing Giovanni and sit down and work with them, many will heed it. Plus it doesn't hurt that the the Harbingers along with the Giovanni and Samedi are the most powerful Bloodlines of the Clan now giving them a great degree of control and influence in the Clan, something they never had before. Amusingly some have begun to slide into the roles their Cappadocian cousins were famous for, the roles of Chamberlains and advisors, both within and without the Clan. Those doing so outside the Clan are working as spies and agents.

                              Then of course on top of all of that, the Second Inquisition is bearing down on all of them. Nothing like a mutual threat to bring old foes together.

                              Certainly there are old hatreds between the Harbingers and Giovanni but they all seem to agree that with the current state of the world, unity and strength is what's needed now. Leave the grudges of the past in the past... or until a more oppurtune time.

                              The Cappadocians are a bit of different bag altogether. At the moment, they are waiting and watching things on whether to stay in the Hecata, defect to the Camarilla or even attempt a coup against the Giovanni wing of the Clan. Though a few are more independent of the Clan, like the returned Roger Cadmen, head of the Cult of Mithras and Camarilla Prince of Edinburgh. Though the Cam does question his loyalty, suspecting that declared the city for the Cam after his takeover to prevent reprisals from them. And while he still hates the Giovanni, he does allow non-Giovanni Hecata into the Cult.

                              Like the Harbingers, they are rebuilding their Bloodline and sliding back into their old roles of scholar, researcher and adviser.

                              The Hecata section very much has a theme of Life, Death and Rebirth going on. For the Hecata and their Bloodlines, they are in the Rebirth stage of that cycle.


                              Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                1. BD Walters said in one of the episodes of Season 3 that the Camarilla was fleeing the Second Inquisition in San Fransisco. He also has said it and Jason Carl on Twitter.

                                2. The Camarilla book has the Camarilla control Tokyo but no mention of the Kuei-Jin at all. We also have had Matthew Dawkins explain why the Wan Kuei are really-really hard to rewrite without totally changing their concept and that he (or Onyx Path) have no intention of using them.
                                I knew Dawkins didn't like them but that is depressing if true. The Wan Kuei while having issues, brought something different and interesting to the table. People over on the Storyteller's Vault have done some interesting work on them. I refuse to believe that the Wan Kuei cannot be done well without having to throw everything out and starting from scratch.

                                For that matter, why does the base concept of a soul escaping Hell to crawl back into their corpse and finding purpose in that new existence require it to be thrown out to begin with?


                                Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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