Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Why is Hecata?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post

    I knew Dawkins didn't like them but that is depressing if true. The Wan Kuei while having issues, brought something different and interesting to the table. People over on the Storyteller's Vault have done some interesting work on them. I refuse to believe that the Wan Kuei cannot be done well without having to throw everything out and starting from scratch.

    For that matter, why does the base concept of a soul escaping Hell to crawl back into their corpse and finding purpose in that new existence require it to be thrown out to begin with?
    I think it's more the fact that the Wan Kuei were a mishmash of Chinese, Indian, and Japanese mythology that included lines like, "The Kuei Jin know things about torture that would make a Tzimisce sick."

    Unless that's talking about how the Kuei Jin know how to give teddy bears and forming lasting friendships, the sheer Yellow Peril and silliness of it is hard to really salvage.

    You probably could redeem them but the irony is that Paradox seems more concerned about gaming controversy than most companies--despite having constantly had to deal with it in V5.

    It's why the Ravnos may be also permanently written out.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

      It's why the Ravnos may be also permanently written out.
      Eh. If they have a good enough pitch, I'm sure they'll do some reimagining. They've already reimagined other things. And Dawkins has stated he has plans for the Ravnos, assuming his Outcasts book or something using those concepts gets pitched/approved.

      Comment


      • #33
        Hm. Does not work for me. I was seeing the Fall of the Giovanni coming in their comments about how the Milliners, Pisanob etc minor families were much more numerous than the other clans knew, while clearly having no idea themselves of how big they were. And treating them like shit. I figured all it would take was a small push from Byzar or Lazarus or someone...

        This sort of thing smacks of lets all gather the Necromacy users into one group just because. Sure, mortal enemies that have genocides and persecuted each other for centuries will be just on big family. It breaks suspension of disbelief.

        Also, the Harbringers. I enjoyed the theory that they were wraiths abused by the Giovanni who possessed torpid Cappadocians. Maybe some were the wraiths of Kindred. Thing is, the motivation "They killed the guys we hated before us" is basically pique. It doesn't carry clan-on-clan enmity for half a thousand years. Also, if Cappadocian elders had enough knowledge of Necromancy and the Shadowlands to bust out their clanmates back during the Feast of Folly, what did Cappadocious need the Giovanni for?

        Comment


        • #34
          This sort of thing smacks of lets all gather the Necromacy users into one group just because. Sure, mortal enemies that have genocides and persecuted each other for centuries will be just on big family. It breaks suspension of disbelief.
          I see it as as an alliance of the people who hated the Giovanni Elders most. A successful Anarch revolt!

          YAY ANARCHS!



          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
            Hm. Does not work for me. I was seeing the Fall of the Giovanni coming in their comments about how the Milliners, Pisanob etc minor families were much more numerous than the other clans knew, while clearly having no idea themselves of how big they were. And treating them like shit. I figured all it would take was a small push from Byzar or Lazarus or someone...

            This sort of thing smacks of lets all gather the Necromacy users into one group just because. Sure, mortal enemies that have genocides and persecuted each other for centuries will be just on big family. It breaks suspension of disbelief.

            Also, the Harbringers. I enjoyed the theory that they were wraiths abused by the Giovanni who possessed torpid Cappadocians. Maybe some were the wraiths of Kindred. Thing is, the motivation "They killed the guys we hated before us" is basically pique. It doesn't carry clan-on-clan enmity for half a thousand years. Also, if Cappadocian elders had enough knowledge of Necromancy and the Shadowlands to bust out their clanmates back during the Feast of Folly, what did Cappadocious need the Giovanni for?
            Cappadocius needed Augustus to be his Judas, to be his executioner as part of his insane scheme to diablerize God. And given what V20 and V5 has said about the Harbingers, I now firmly believe that the destruction of his own was part of that as the Feast of Folly gutted the Cappadocians of their more martially or espionage inclined members, reducing their ability to defend themselves from the Giovanni.

            Also, as I said before it wasn't just that the Harbingers were mad at the Giovanni for stealing their vengeance but that Augustus and the Giovanni Elders were puppets to Cappadocius and insane scheme. Everything else was just a public excuse.

            It's something that gets repeated in both V20 and V5 but they utterly reject the notion that the Giovanni seized the mantle of the Clan of Death by their own ambition, cunning and power. They seized it because Cappadocian gave it to them. Further the Harbingers believe that Augustus himself unknowingly carried a piece of Cappadocius's soul within him and that the Antediluvian was controlling the Giovanni through Augustus still.

            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            I see it as as an alliance of the people who hated the Giovanni Elders most. A successful Anarch revolt!

            YAY ANARCHS!

            Only if Augustus is truly dead. At the moment he's Schrodingeer's Venetian Mobster.

            That said, Augustus is and has always been the Joke of the Antediluvians so it's not like it would be a horrible thing if he survived and came back.

            Old, Mad Cappadocius on the other hand...


            Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post
              Only if Augustus is truly dead. At the moment he's Schrodingeer's Venetian Mobster.

              That said, Augustus is and has always been the Joke of the Antediluvians so it's not like it would be a horrible thing if he survived and came back.

              Old, Mad Cappadocius on the other hand...
              One Loresheet indicates he's not only merely dead but really most sincerely dead. I am inclined to think he's probably been replaced as an Antediluvian, though, but with what is the question.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

              Comment


              • #37
                I skimmed the thread because most of this has been talked out before, but has anyone brought up the National Crime Syndicate thing yet? It's the thing that sold me on it all being plausible.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                  One Loresheet indicates he's not only merely dead but really most sincerely dead. I am inclined to think he's probably been replaced as an Antediluvian, though, but with what is the question.
                  Well we're not even sure if Augustus was diablerized or simply destroyed. Certainly at least some of the Harbingers believed a bit of old Cappadocius was inside him and if they were present for his death, they would not want anyone diablerizing Augustus and getting that fragment in them.

                  The manuscript does bring up the Capuchin and how he's an important adviser to the Hecata and possibly the defacto leader of the Clan. Of course it doesn't shed any light as to who the Capuchin is, whether it be Lazarus, Japheth or as V20 presented it, the trio of Lazarus, Japheth and Byzar.

                  My thoughts are that the Capuchin (whomever it is) was involved in Augustus' death, the Family Reunion and the merging of their Blood. I suspect that the Capuchin along some Elder Harbingers, in not Elders from all Bloodlines that form the Hecata (including the Giovanni) captured Augustus and shattered his wraith prison. Then at the end of the discussions of the Family Reunion, in private gathering of the Elders of the soon-to-be Clan, Augustus was slain by the Capuchin as part of a ritual to unite their Blood. Possibly also to protect them from the Beckoning.

                  Originally posted by Draconis View Post
                  I skimmed the thread because most of this has been talked out before, but has anyone brought up the National Crime Syndicate thing yet? It's the thing that sold me on it all being plausible.
                  I'm sorry but I don't quite understand this. Are you referring to the Giovanni's connection to criminal syndicates?

                  If so they are still present. Undoubtedly taken a hit because of the SI and the general chaos that hit the Giovanni prior to the formation of the Hecata but they are still there. Though they've moved much of those connections and activities to the Putanesca Family, one of the lesser families that made up the Giovanni, in an effort to compartmentalize their activities. Unsurprising given the Putanesca origins as thugs and petty crooks that did the Giovanni's dirty work.


                  Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Should be noted that not all the death-associated bloodlines have joined up with the Hecata - the Mla Watu and Impundulu aren't officially considered members, and the Hecata know the Unhudo have a mummified appearance but not much else (including the fact that as one of the Drowned Legacies they may or may not be Kindred).


                    Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
                      Hm. Does not work for me. I was seeing the Fall of the Giovanni coming in their comments about how the Milliners, Pisanob etc minor families were much more numerous than the other clans knew, while clearly having no idea themselves of how big they were. And treating them like shit. I figured all it would take was a small push from Byzar or Lazarus or someone...

                      This sort of thing smacks of lets all gather the Necromacy users into one group just because. Sure, mortal enemies that have genocides and persecuted each other for centuries will be just on big family. It breaks suspension of disbelief.

                      Also, the Harbringers. I enjoyed the theory that they were wraiths abused by the Giovanni who possessed torpid Cappadocians. Maybe some were the wraiths of Kindred. Thing is, the motivation "They killed the guys we hated before us" is basically pique. It doesn't carry clan-on-clan enmity for half a thousand years. Also, if Cappadocian elders had enough knowledge of Necromancy and the Shadowlands to bust out their clanmates back during the Feast of Folly, what did Cappadocious need the Giovanni for?


                      Yeah, actually, it doesn't make much sense for the Milliners and such to go 'Ok, yeah, let's get rid of our number one family and instead put ourselves under some other mysterious elders..."
                      Doesn't really sound like an anarch revolt to me. Sounds just like a switch for a different master. And sure, the harbringers don't openly have much ambitions like the giovanni, they could be a 'nicer' boss; but I wouldn't trust them. Bunch of mask wearing elder corpses who've been in the lands of the dead for too long: not exactly a beacon of trust. They might make for temporary allies, but I see nothing of permanence.


                      V5 is not VTM

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post
                        I suspect that the Capuchin along some Elder Harbingers, in not Elders from all Bloodlines that form the Hecata (including the Giovanni) captured Augustus and shattered his wraith prison. Then at the end of the discussions of the Family Reunion, in private gathering of the Elders of the soon-to-be Clan, Augustus was slain by the Capuchin as part of a ritual to unite their Blood. Possibly also to protect them from the Beckoning.
                        Bloody feast on Augustus body :P
                        Mafia-necromancer style.
                        Augustus - you failed this clan, so now, we kill you, drink your blood, and make one familly with others who hate you.
                        Best option.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                          Yeah, actually, it doesn't make much sense for the Milliners and such to go 'Ok, yeah, let's get rid of our number one family and instead put ourselves under some other mysterious elders..."
                          Doesn't really sound like an anarch revolt to me. Sounds just like a switch for a different master. And sure, the harbringers don't openly have much ambitions like the giovanni, they could be a 'nicer' boss; but I wouldn't trust them. Bunch of mask wearing elder corpses who've been in the lands of the dead for too long: not exactly a beacon of trust. They might make for temporary allies, but I see nothing of permanence.
                          To carry the Family Reunion idea and the family motif, I suggest the following:

                          For the Milliners, Dunsirn, Putanesca, Pisanob and the others, it is an upgrade from the kid's table to the adult table. Yes, there is still someone sitting at the head of the table, and it probably isn't one of the Giovanni sub families, but you stand a greater chance of having your voice hear there than elsewhere.

                          I would also consider the Milliners were only brought in in the last 70ish years, which is why they do not yet have a grand stake in things as the Dunsirn do.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post



                            Yeah, actually, it doesn't make much sense for the Milliners and such to go 'Ok, yeah, let's get rid of our number one family and instead put ourselves under some other mysterious elders..."
                            Doesn't really sound like an anarch revolt to me. Sounds just like a switch for a different master. And sure, the harbringers don't openly have much ambitions like the giovanni, they could be a 'nicer' boss; but I wouldn't trust them. Bunch of mask wearing elder corpses who've been in the lands of the dead for too long: not exactly a beacon of trust. They might make for temporary allies, but I see nothing of permanence.
                            It's much more complicated than that. First off, the Giovanni are still around and still in a position of power. As I previously mentioned, the Giovanni, Harbingers and Samedi are the three most numerous and powerful Bloodlines in the Clan (unsurprising given that if the Hecata have a scared number, it's three as three repeats many times through the chapter and their Clan). And on a sidenote while the Dunsirn, Pisanob and Putanesca have been made into independent Bloodlines within the Clan, the Milliners are still part of the Giovanni. Further, not all Giovanni Elders were killed, some survived and some were in on it. Ambrogino Giovanni is still around and makes an appearance in book, doing his usual creepy Necromancer thing. We also don't really know who's sitting at the top of the Clan, whether it's a lone individual like the Capuchin or a council of Elders. So it's a mistaken to claim that the Harbingers are running the show in the Hecata. Certainly they are a powerful within the Clan but not the sole power.

                            There is also a philosophical belief/cult within the Hecata that holds that all that's happened to them, from the days of Cappadocius to today, is all part of a repeating cycle of three. Life, Death, Rebirth. Death, Rot, Rebirth. Cappadocians, Giovanni, Hecata. Giovanni, Harbingers of Ashur, Samedi. The Feast of Folly, the Promise of 1528, the Family Reunion. The three faces of the Hecata symbol. On and on and on it goes.

                            This talk permeates the in-character accounts of the Hecata and their Bloodlines, coming across as propaganda to promote unity within the new Clan.

                            It also doesn't hurt that they have the outside threats of the Second Inquisition, the angry wraiths that Augustus enslaved and are now free, and the upcoming end of the non-aggression pact with the Camarilla to worry about. Never dismiss how shared threats can unite.

                            That said, there is indeed internal tension and politicking going on with the Clan and it's factions, not unlike within the Giovanni before them. But again, with the external threats hanging over them those struggles take a back seat to making sure the Clan survives. After all, taking out your Harbinger rival becomes pretty meaningless if you end up bring the SI down on your head or cost the Clan ground to the Camarilla.

                            It also helps that with the deaths of a bunch of the ancient Giovanni that sat at the top of the Clan, many of the mid-level Giovanni have finally been able to rise into greater positions of power with the Clan.


                            Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              But look at it this way.
                              A lone necromancer in a city without necromancers is valuable
                              A few necromancers in a city are strong.
                              A city of mostly necromancers provides no business oppertunity.

                              Why worry about the expiry of a non agression pact, when you can just join the cam and become valued for services only your small group can provide?
                              I can't imagine such a cult would be so influentual among the savy businessmen of the Giovanni, and the younger, more business oriented families like the milliners are moreso going to avoid this magical thinking like the plague. Actually more religious-minded vampires within the clan are going to have their own dogma already and aren't going to welcome some new happy 'we're all in this together' nonsense, everyone would likely be incredibly weary, if not hostile, of this newspeak.


                              V5 is not VTM

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post
                                I'm sorry but I don't quite understand this. Are you referring to the Giovanni's connection to criminal syndicates?
                                Sort of! It's a real-world thing: back in the 1920s, the Mafia in New York was under huge pressure from law enforcement, and Lucky Luciano saw that everything was about to fall apart. The old establishment types who held all the positions of power were unwilling or unable to adapt to the new pressures and they were going to drive the whole organization into the ground. So Luciano gathered a bunch of allies, younger mobsters who agreed that the older generation needed to be removed, and made alliances with the Jewish and Irish mobs, who had previously been their mortal enemies. Together they, ah…politely requested that the older leaders step back (read: killed a lot of them and strongly suggested that the rest voluntarily retire), then built the different organizations up into the "National Crime Syndicate", the strongest organized-crime group in America at the time.

                                I'm pretty sure this is what (OOC, but possibly IC too) inspired the new direction of the Hecata. The younger Giovanni, under pressure from the SI, making alliances with their old enemies (Samedi, Harbingers) and conspiring to dethrone the old guard and create a new unified front. Whether it's necromancy or plain old extortion, a racket works best when you and your friends have a monopoly on it so there's nowhere else for your "customers" to turn.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X