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  • #46
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    Why worry about the expiry of a non agression pact, when you can just join the cam and become valued for services only your small group can provide?
    I can't imagine such a cult would be so influentual among the savy businessmen of the Giovanni, and the younger, more business oriented families like the milliners are moreso going to avoid this magical thinking like the plague. Actually more religious-minded vampires within the clan are going to have their own dogma already and aren't going to welcome some new happy 'we're all in this together' nonsense, everyone would likely be incredibly weary, if not hostile, of this newspeak.
    In my games at least, they're avoiding the Cam because they think the Cam is a tottering relic that's about to get utterly annihilated by the SI. The Hecata have seen firsthand what happens when the Elders in charge get complacent, and the way they've avoided being destroyed is by removing those Elders from power with extreme prejudice. The Harbingers know intimately how quickly the Camarilla will sell them out as soon as it's convenient. The Hecata have their back.

    And I agree, there won't be very many cities of mostly necromancers. They're a syndicate rather than a sect, holding a monopoly on necromancy and having a few members in each major Camarilla and Anarch domain. The money and favors they take in fill the Family's coffers and give them insurance for when the next SI strike happens.

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    • #47
      Now I guess if youre going with V5 and the cam has the idiot ball, that would make sense. But if I wanted to adapt this to V20, where the Cam are competent enough for my suspension of disbelief, It doesn't make sense.


      For ease of reference: "VTM" means every edition that isn't V5, because V5... it's a very different product, and I don't want to write "Pre-V5" because that's lame and I'm lazy.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
        Now I guess if youre going with V5 and the cam has the idiot ball, that would make sense. But if I wanted to adapt this to V20, where the Cam are competent enough for my suspension of disbelief, It doesn't make sense.
        I mean, in V20 the Giovanni hadn't joined the Cam either, right? They like their independence. And the Cappas used to be part of the Cam (iirc), until the Giovanni showed up and the Cam said "eh, sure, go ahead and eat those other necromancers, we don't really need them any more". Those both seem like good reasons to stay out.

        (That second reason, btw, is why I have no difficulty believing that the Cam would welcome in the Banu Haqim after the collapse of the Pyramid, and why it makes sense that the Tremere would find this fact utterly terrifying. The Cam doesn't have a great track record of staying loyal to its own when a better offer arises.)

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        • #49
          The Giovanni were not in the Cam because they wanted to do secretive weird shit with ghosts without anyone paying attention.
          If they're going against their elders, they aught to stop doing the secretive weird shit, and thus aught to join the cam. Especially if this non agression pact is about to expire.


          For ease of reference: "VTM" means every edition that isn't V5, because V5... it's a very different product, and I don't want to write "Pre-V5" because that's lame and I'm lazy.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
            But look at it this way.
            A lone necromancer in a city without necromancers is valuable
            A few necromancers in a city are strong.
            A city of mostly necromancers provides no business oppertunity.

            Why worry about the expiry of a non agression pact, when you can just join the cam and become valued for services only your small group can provide?
            I can't imagine such a cult would be so influentual among the savy businessmen of the Giovanni, and the younger, more business oriented families like the milliners are moreso going to avoid this magical thinking like the plague. Actually more religious-minded vampires within the clan are going to have their own dogma already and aren't going to welcome some new happy 'we're all in this together' nonsense, everyone would likely be incredibly weary, if not hostile, of this newspeak.
            As I've said before, the Giovanni liked their independence from the Sect, not just for the freedom they had from the Sects but also because it was profitable for them to hire out their services not just to the Camarilla but the Sabbat and Anarchs as well. Something the Hecata is continuing. Hell, they even have an advantage in that most outsiders aren't aware that the other Necromancer Bloodlines have joined them or even aware of the existence of said Bloodlines. The Harbinger section talks about some of their members using that ignorance to infiltrate Camarilla/Anarch courts.

            Then there is the matter that the vast majority of Giovanni didn't know that the Promise of 1528 had a five hundred year term, which means they don't have much time until it expires. Worse, because of the SI, the Cam has gotten more aggressive towards those not part of the Sect. Some Cam cities have the attitude of 'if you're not a part of the Sect, you're an enemy'. And they're the ones that nearly five hundred years ago negotiated not to be in the Sect. So who knows how they would react to such a hypothetical attempt to join the Sect. Would they truly welcome them in open arms? Or would they attach strings to it? Like demanding they share their Necromancy and/or business enterprises with the Sect. Or would see it as a fat rat attempting to jump from their sinking ship to the Camarilla's damaged, fragile ship and reject them as foes as they did the Anarchs and the Setites?

            Then there's the Cappadocian/Harbinger wing of the Clan who don't like the Camarilla for selling out the Cappadocians with the Promise and/or hate them for being pawns of the Antes.

            And some have expressed that the Camarilla could very well be in it's own slow death spiral as it's torn apart from within and without in the coming years. Not a surprising notion given recent events. For some when given the choice between continuing to stick it out alone and possibly fall or joining a rickety ship that could just as easily fall, the former is a hundred times better. Even with the Samedi, Harbingers, Cappadocians and Lamiae, the Giovanni know where they stand with them and the Giovanni are still a maintain a major power block in the Clan. But if the Giovanni had instead joined the Cam, they'd be one of eight Clan and would have far less power and influence in the Sect than they do with the Hecata.

            As for those less religious Giovanni, again there's a lot for them to like about the new setup. Again, with much of their upper leadership gone, many of the younger Giovanni are moving into roles of greater power and authority, roles that the vast majority never would have seen under the old system. Several of their satellite families have gained complete autonomy as a Bloodline of the Clan rather than as a part of the Giovanni. And currently even the most conservative estimates puts at least half the Hecata descended of Giovanni Blood. Finally, the Giovanni and their families are still the face of the Clan since the other Bloodlines that make up the Hecata are generally obscure in the modern nights and/or have elders that aren't exactly pleasant to look upon. Which means that the majority of political, business and criminal activities of the Clan are still going to be in their hands.

            Originally posted by Draconis View Post

            Sort of! It's a real-world thing: back in the 1920s, the Mafia in New York was under huge pressure from law enforcement, and Lucky Luciano saw that everything was about to fall apart. The old establishment types who held all the positions of power were unwilling or unable to adapt to the new pressures and they were going to drive the whole organization into the ground. So Luciano gathered a bunch of allies, younger mobsters who agreed that the older generation needed to be removed, and made alliances with the Jewish and Irish mobs, who had previously been their mortal enemies. Together they, ah…politely requested that the older leaders step back (read: killed a lot of them and strongly suggested that the rest voluntarily retire), then built the different organizations up into the "National Crime Syndicate", the strongest organized-crime group in America at the time.

            I'm pretty sure this is what (OOC, but possibly IC too) inspired the new direction of the Hecata. The younger Giovanni, under pressure from the SI, making alliances with their old enemies (Samedi, Harbingers) and conspiring to dethrone the old guard and create a new unified front. Whether it's necromancy or plain old extortion, a racket works best when you and your friends have a monopoly on it so there's nowhere else for your "customers" to turn.
            That's actually a pretty good comparison. Now I wonder if the writers drew from that in creating the Hecata or if it was a happy little coincidence. And having a stranglehold on Necromancy is going to be another boon for the Clan.


            Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

              I see it as as an alliance of the people who hated the Giovanni Elders most. A successful Anarch revolt!

              YAY ANARCHS!

              Yeah, I am sorry but I don't buy it. Like I said, I do buy the lesser families, the Milliners, Putanesca, Pisanob, Dunsirn etc doing an Augustus on Augustus and a Giovanni on the Giovanni. The autocannibalism clan. Byzar or Japeth or Lazarus pulling their strings and giving little pushes in the background. But I don't buy the others getting involved or being greeted by anything but a stake. The Giovanni... they are not just a clan or blood bonds, they are also family. The younger Giovanni would be killing their grandparents and parents here. I'd expect an Anarch revolt among the Ventrue before I'd believe it among the Giovanni. And here they are killing and betraying them to join with dreadful old elders that have lived in the lands of the dead and are all mad from it? No.

              You know who was the most against freeing the slaves after the US civil war? The mulattoes, who did not want to be equal with the blacks. If the younger Giovanni sees the minor families become their equals, the whole endeavor is a big net loss to them, and with the Harbringers coming in, theres not a lot of room at the top anyway.

              The Harbringers...you know despite them saying that they wanted to exterminate the Giovanni, I could see the letting the younger ones slip. They just don't have that much reason to hate any Giovanni. The Cappadocians though... I don't see them letting any of the Cappadocians live. That would be white hot hatred.

              The Cappadocians... them joining with the younger Giovanni would be like Jews at the end of WW2 allying with SS troops who had not been on that many extermination missions. I mean, the even the younger Giovanni was part of a pogrom to genocide them. Maybe the occasional Romeo and Juliet, but it would end in blood and tears.

              The Samedi... I just don't see much reason for them to abandon their long standing isolation stance. They even had the Giovanni leave them alone, (which is quite possibly something to do with them having a jar of Augustus mortal blood for a long time.)

              The Nagaraja... Ok I can see them grasping at any ally they could get.

              But most of these guys hate the younger Giovanni almost as much as the Elders, and the younger Giovanni is certainly not going to exchange their elders for a bunch of people sworn to exterminate them.

              It would have seemed much more organic to have the Setites form something like this. They've been working on it politically for decades. First the Trujah after the fall of Enoch, then the Cappadocians though Lazarus... and the Setites just love doing stuff for you. This seems to have formed by decree around a discipline rather than a political and organic union of actors that are mutually in need of allies.

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              • #52
                I mostly think it's a question of how many of X group people think actually exist. I think part of the issue is that I think vampire often grossly overinflates the number of people involved in a storyline so that people get an idea it's a massive number. The kind of intrigue and plotting in a vampire court, for example, is going to be probably the same as your average high school at best and more likely a elite private school because there's a 100 to 200 vampires AT BEST in a given location.

                Your average Anarch held domain doesn't have to have a complicated organization because there's like 6 or 7 vampires in Tallahassee or Dayton and they only have to rule over each other.

                Which gets to my point...

                Number wise, how many Harbingers of Skulls are there in the world?

                I'm thinking, maybe a hundred? Max? More like 20-30 probably? Remember, the Harbingers couldn't actually Embrace people until recently. They joined the Sabbat because they needed a bunch of shocktroopers to murder Giovanni. Which they moved onto the younger Giovanni regarding because the Sabbat committed mass suicide in Syria and Saudi Arabia. They wouldn't be an issue if not for the fact that they're 20-30 5th and 6th generation ancients who can wield more power than the entire Giovanni clan in terms of raw disciplines.

                Cappadocians?

                Roger de Camden and maybe 2 others.

                Yes, I think there's probably 3 or 4. People are thinking of groups here when I think they should be thinking of individual NPCs. The Cappadocians aren't Jews. They're Magneto. Really potent and scary people who do not have an actual group behind them.
                Last edited by CTPhipps; 02-10-2020, 04:31 PM.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                  Cappadocians?

                  Roger de Camden and maybe 2 others.

                  Yes, I think there's probably 3 or 4. People are thinking of groups here when I think they should be thinking of individual NPCs. The Cappadocians aren't Jews. They're Magneto. Really potent and scary people who do not have an actual group behind them.
                  Eh, depends on where you draw the line. Apacia, Byzar, Lazarus, Japeth, Drenis, Constancia, Roger de Camden and Angelique, are all presumed active, any childer they may have sired, maybe Troglodytia, sundry premascines, various infitiores, and all of the Mla Watu which must be hundreds.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
                    Eh, depends on where you draw the line. Apacia, Byzar, Lazarus, Japeth, Drenis, Constancia, Roger de Camden and Angelique, are all presumed active, any childer they may have sired, maybe Troglodytia, sundry premascines, various infitiores, and all of the Mla Watu which must be hundreds.
                    Constancia at least is confirmed dead as of Cults, but that's the only one of those I know anything about.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Trollroot View Post

                      Eh, depends on where you draw the line. Apacia, Byzar, Lazarus, Japeth, Drenis, Constancia, Roger de Camden and Angelique, are all presumed active, any childer they may have sired, maybe Troglodytia, sundry premascines, various infitiores, and all of the Mla Watu which must be hundreds.
                      Ehhh, that kind or runs into it because Roger is actually a Harbinger of Skulls according to him despite not possessing any of their trademark qualities. Generally, my view of the Cappadocians are they are going to be a people that were considered as if not even more extinct than the Salubri if we want to take their extermination seriously. The Asian and Laibon branches of the Clan will never have been touched by the Giovanni, so they're not going to have any care about the "extermination" which is now more just a war in the clan.

                      Mind you, I'm not a big fan of "The Last White Howler" sort of handlings to groups that are supposedly destroyed.

                      Indeed, the Cappadocians did used to be extinct but are now the LARGEST group, outnumbering surviving Salubri many times over.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                        Ehhh, that kind or runs into it because Roger is actually a Harbinger of Skulls according to him despite not possessing any of their trademark qualities. Generally, my view of the Cappadocians are they are going to be a people that were considered as if not even more extinct than the Salubri if we want to take their extermination seriously. The Asian and Laibon branches of the Clan will never have been touched by the Giovanni, so they're not going to have any care about the "extermination" which is now more just a war in the clan.

                        Mind you, I'm not a big fan of "The Last White Howler" sort of handlings to groups that are supposedly destroyed.

                        Indeed, the Cappadocians did used to be extinct but are now the LARGEST group, outnumbering surviving Salubri many times over.
                        Like I said, depends on where you draw the line. Mind, I absolutely agree with you on the number of survivors on other continents. I was OK with maybe the Samedi and a couple of incredibly powerful and angry methuselahs. One of my gripes with Kindred of the Ebony kingdom was how disconnected it was from the Jyhad.

                        Originally posted by Draconis View Post

                        Constancia at least is confirmed dead as of Cults, but that's the only one of those I know anything about.
                        Huh, I didn't know that. What happened?

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
                          Huh, I didn't know that. What happened?
                          Unknown. But Ambrogino summons her wraith in the flavortext for Oblivion, and a plot point in Styx and Bones (the mini-chronicle in the back) involves the PCs recovering an artifact that could be used to pull her back from the Labyrinth.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Draconis View Post

                            Unknown. But Ambrogino summons her wraith in the flavortext for Oblivion, and a plot point in Styx and Bones (the mini-chronicle in the back) involves the PCs recovering an artifact that could be used to pull her back from the Labyrinth.
                            Turns out resurrection works like a Pet Semetary for Cappadocians.

                            I kind of feel the Chronicle needed a bit more humor about its premise.

                            "So, we're going to resurrect a dead methuselah."

                            "Wait, WHAT? HUH?"

                            "NOTHING WILL GO WRONG. This is perfectly normal."

                            "SINCE WHEN?"


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                              1. The Second Inquisition is what has been said.

                              2. Maybe but I understand Paradox has two things they hate: Kuei Jin and Ravnos.
                              In a recent (Today recent) tweet regarding the Wan Kuei they stated, "If it make senses for the global metaplot now unfolding, perhaps." This isn't much really, but it is more of a positive response than I expected.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by marin View Post
                                Should be noted that not all the death-associated bloodlines have joined up with the Hecata - the Mla Watu and Impundulu aren't officially considered members, and the Hecata know the Unhudo have a mummified appearance but not much else (including the fact that as one of the Drowned Legacies they may or may not be Kindred).

                                Assuming KotEK will ever actually be addressed in future books.

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