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  • Yes, by colloquial means of naming.


    Jade Kingdom Warrior

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    • Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
      Yes, by colloquial means of naming.
      Systems are too meta a thing to judge connections upon.

      Both are blood-drinking undead things and having two utterly different systems and corebooks, pretty much because some devs back in the late 90s had a brainfart and ignored nothing in Masquerade requires the Caine/Noddist mythology to be fact, was a monumental mistake.

      And yes, it's perfectly possible to add spontaneously risen undead or vampires springing from different weird origins to a game without breaking anything, Requiem has done so with no issue for example. And utterly unrelated to that, i do happen to have a setting where i sort of blended VtM, KotE and the older iterations of asian vampires with quite entertaining results.

      Anyway, going back to the main subject of the Hecata clan-sect, am i to understand the "core weakness" shared by all members is the one previously associated with the Giovanni?
      Last edited by Baaldam; 11-06-2020, 01:50 PM.

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      • Yes because the Hecata aren't a sect but was an excuse to clobber out all the different Necromantic clans into Giovanni "2.0". Samedi don't look like corpses whatsoever, but its a mere flaw. The Harbingers also don't look like corpses as well and merely has to be taken as a flaw too. Nagaraja don't need to eat flesh anymore, etc. Actually- all these aforementioned clans simply don't exist anymore since the Hecata is a "sect," but in practical gameplay meta its purely a clan altogether and its bonkers.

        To touch up about your thought about the Wan Kuei- no, its apparent the designers of KotE when it went to become its own separate line made the deliberate decision to have the Wan Kuei be an entirely different entity than the Kindred. It wasn't a mere "Brainfart". The lore of the Wan Kuei is so different from the Kindred it is laughable that you said they had a "brainfart" with the choices with how they took KotE.

        In the previous page of this thread I already went on about the staunch differences on why they are completely different. Wan Kuei are colloquially termed "Vampires" because at 1-4 of their Dharma level as a young just starting Hungry Ghost, they consume sustenance similar to how Kindred do- by drinking blood. By 5 Dharma however they rarely or if ever use this method anymore, opting to use breath because its more seamless, less messier, and unlikely to kill the mortal host. Not only that Wan Kuei don't utilize Vitae/Blood, they use Yin and Yang energy. This isn't just meta systems, this is in-character as well. The lines couldn't be further than anything else.

        EDIT:

        Originally posted by Baaldam
        nothing in Masquerade requires the Caine/Noddist mythology to be fact, was a monumental mistake.
        Also D:TF, the last of the oWoD line explicitly made VTM Caine-Noddist lore "correct" and "fact". At this point the state of oWoD is just a series of multiple universes all acting simultaneous at a few points, but different at others since stuff like WTA, MTAs, KotE, HTF, CTD, and WTO can't be reconciled with VTM and DTF auspices.
        Last edited by Shakanaka; 11-06-2020, 03:13 PM.


        Jade Kingdom Warrior

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        • Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
          And yes, it's perfectly possible to add spontaneously risen undead or vampires springing from different weird origins to a game without breaking anything, Requiem has done so with no issue for example.
          In my own Vampire chronicles, I use that actually as the origin of some of the more mysterious Bloodlines like the Daughters of Cacophony, Lhiannan, or Nagaraja. They started because somebody transformed into the equivalent of a 7th generation vampire for some reason (making a pact with "Satan" or other involvement with the Dark Powers) and embraced more. They are physically indistinguishable from Cainites and Kindred who descend from an antedeluvian.

          (On the other hand, I erase a lot of "blood lines" that are actually members of the same clan but for some reason were given different Disciplines. I never liked these sub-clans. They are just famed lineages of a clan in my chronicles who possess the same Discipline set as their parent clan). (Then you have weird things like the Ahrimanes, Baali, or Children of Osiris who are not bloodlines, but extremely small sects with access to unique Disciplines and sometimes other weird things). (And of course weird magical experiments that result in Gargoyles, Kiasyd or Blood Brothers.)

          But I don't hold the KotE to be one of them. They are obviously something different. But I never liked how they were developed so frankly I just ignore them except as a name for Revenants in East Asia that became numerous and prominent there.

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          • I don't know about the other Bloodlines you mentioned, but the Nagaraja made themselves with Setite blood with a ritual similar to what the Tremere did.


            Jade Kingdom Warrior

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            • Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
              Anyway, going back to the main subject of the Hecata clan-sect, am i to understand the "core weakness" shared by all members is the one previously associated with the Giovanni?
              That depends which part of the book you take most literally. At the loosest end, in the fluff chapter that discusses matters like why they came together and so forth, the Giovanni curse "spreads to most new Hecata", which isn't all members. There are references elsewhere, particularly in the lore sheets, that say that Samedi don't like corpses any more and Nagaraja don't have to eat people anymore, but there's also a character talking about how creepy it is to attend mass led a priestess who has to staple her face together every night.

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              • Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post

                That depends which part of the book you take most literally. At the loosest end, in the fluff chapter that discusses matters like why they came together and so forth, the Giovanni curse "spreads to most new Hecata", which isn't all members. There are references elsewhere, particularly in the lore sheets, that say that Samedi don't like corpses any more and Nagaraja don't have to eat people anymore, but there's also a character talking about how creepy it is to attend mass led a priestess who has to staple her face together every night.
                Yeah it sounds like most of the Hecata have changed to the Giovanni Flaw but some of the older Kindred have retained previous Bloodline Flaws.

                Presumably this is because it's implied that when they had overthrown Augustus and the Giovanni Elders, that they in secret sacrificed Augustus in a ritual to unite the various Bloodlines together into the Hecata.

                Though I do think that they should, like the alternate Discipline spread options, should include alternate Bloodline Flaws.


                Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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                • Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                  Yes because the Hecata aren't a sect but was an excuse to clobber out all the different Necromantic clans into Giovanni "2.0". Samedi don't look like corpses whatsoever, but its a mere flaw. The Harbingers also don't look like corpses as well and merely has to be taken as a flaw too. Nagaraja don't need to eat flesh anymore, etc. Actually- all these aforementioned clans simply don't exist anymore since the Hecata is a "sect," but in practical gameplay meta its purely a clan altogether and its bonkers.
                  I agree with there being some definite weirdness to the concept, but there also seems to be some weird ritual bull$#!t with some guidance of the Capuchin/Lazarus/whoever involved in those shenanigans. The fact this lampshades the weirdness while leaving it as hook for players and STs to explore in any ways - what the heck is the Capuchin trying to do, why the Giovanni (Lamia?) flaw and not the Caps or Harbingers/Samedi/Infitiores one, was that the old monster intent or some unexpected colateral, etc - not to mention the fluff and comments on old flaws seem to imply a "make the cake and eat too" atitude, where if one weakness is replaced or another one added is a matter of player/ST (though not character, at least conciously) choice, what again can offer some entertaining roplaying fodder.


                  Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                  To touch up about your thought about the Wan Kuei- no, its apparent the designers of KotE when it went to become its own separate line made the deliberate decision to have the Wan Kuei be an entirely different entity than the Kindred. It wasn't a mere "Brainfart". The lore of the Wan Kuei is so different from the Kindred it is laughable that you said they had a "brainfart" with the choices with how they took KotE.

                  In the previous page of this thread I already went on about the staunch differences on why they are completely different. Wan Kuei are colloquially termed "Vampires" because at 1-4 of their Dharma level as a young just starting Hungry Ghost, they consume sustenance similar to how Kindred do- by drinking blood. By 5 Dharma however they rarely or if ever use this method anymore, opting to use breath because its more seamless, less messier, and unlikely to kill the mortal host. Not only that Wan Kuei don't utilize Vitae/Blood, they use Yin and Yang energy. This isn't just meta systems, this is in-character as well. The lines couldn't be further than anything else.
                  A deliberate decision can be misguided, misinformed and based on misconceptions. That still is very much is my assessment of the creative process behind KotE.

                  And i'll leave it at that, because this is a thread about the Hecata and this talk has serious derailing potential. But i would be amenable to continuing that discussion in private or by making another thread just for that, if you would be interested in that too.


                  Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                  In my own Vampire chronicles, I use that actually as the origin of some of the more mysterious Bloodlines like the Daughters of Cacophony, Lhiannan, or Nagaraja. They started because somebody transformed into the equivalent of a 7th generation vampire for some reason (making a pact with "Satan" or other involvement with the Dark Powers) and embraced more. They are physically indistinguishable from Cainites and Kindred who descend from an antedeluvian.
                  There are a number of ways to go with explanations or lack of. You come up with some funky non-embraced conceit and the "generation/blood potency" is just a reflection of how puisant was whatever esoteric force/circunstances were involved in one's particular doom, ranging from pitiful thin-blooded wretch no better than a 13th gen to "near antediluvian" freshly spawned predator-kings/queens to be.


                  Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                  (On the other hand, I erase a lot of "blood lines" that are actually members of the same clan but for some reason were given different Disciplines. I never liked these sub-clans. They are just famed lineages of a clan in my chronicles who possess the same Discipline set as their parent clan). (Then you have weird things like the Ahrimanes, Baali, or Children of Osiris who are not bloodlines, but extremely small sects with access to unique Disciplines and sometimes other weird things). (And of course weird magical experiments that result in Gargoyles, Kiasyd or Blood Brothers.)
                  Ideal with that kind of stuff in a case by case basis mostly, will even change my take of a bloodline or clan depending on chronicle, group of players or my mood as ST. Lore can vary wildly depending on what i feel like pulling out in a story arc.


                  Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                  But I don't hold the KotE to be one of them. They are obviously something different. But I never liked how they were developed so frankly I just ignore them except as a name for Revenants in East Asia that became numerous and prominent there.
                  I use my own bastardized version of Southeast Asia, that blends much of KotE's lore with materials on that part of the world from previous books into something else altogether. I have kindred who embrace into their own clans/bloodlines, the risen undead predators that eventually refine themselves into clanless seekers of wisdom along with peculiar shapechangers that will prey on mortal - and occasionally kindred or other supernaturals - flesh, blood or breath, going on with their weird shenanigans, separately or together, depending on local culture, individual and other factors.


                  Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                  Also D:TF, the last of the oWoD line explicitly made VTM Caine-Noddist lore "correct" and "fact". At this point the state of oWoD is just a series of multiple universes all acting simultaneous at a few points, but different at others since stuff like WTA, MTAs, KotE, HTF, CTD, and WTO can't be reconciled with VTM and DTF auspices.
                  ​Oh, D:tF is a disaster and the less said about it the better.


                  Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                  I don't know about the other Bloodlines you mentioned, but the Nagaraja made themselves with Setite blood with a ritual similar to what the Tremere did.
                  Setites? Curious now. Could you give a source for that?

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                  • I'll check and give an EDIT-update, but from off-hand memory reference for the use of Setite blood to give them Vampirehood was either in Lore of the Bloodlines or from the V20 True Blackhand book.

                    EDIT: Here it is;

                    Originally posted by The Black Guide to the TalMaRahe, pg 164
                    The bloodline claims no Clan as
                    its founder, but its elders know that
                    Setite blood was magically altered to
                    produce them. This blood was supposedly
                    cleansed of Sutekh’s malign
                    influence. Though the yamasattva
                    are mighty sorcerers and Inauhaten
                    himself helped design the rite that
                    made them, Nagaraja are particularly
                    knowledgeable in the occult and know
                    that once broken, mystic sympathies
                    can be remade. Thus, they fall on
                    the Followers of Set as anonymous
                    executioners, refusing to ever speak
                    to Snake-Charmers.
                    However checking Lore of the Bloodlines a conflicting source pops up saying that instead they took random pieces of Vitae to complete the ritual instead;

                    Originally posted by Lore of the Bloodlines, pg 64
                    Our kind were once death mages in the ancient days of
                    Enoch, necromancers of the highest caliber who delved into
                    the mysteries of the barriers between life and death. They
                    were pioneers in their field, many of whom lived among
                    Cainites in the first Necropolis. When the fall of that great
                    place came and the Kindred fractured, our people knew
                    it was only a matter of time before chaos would destroy
                    everything. A war had started, and the necromancers knew
                    they had to play their part if there was to be order in the
                    world which was to follow.
                    They obtained a sample of Cainite blood from the
                    strongest they could find among the residents of Enoch,
                    and enacted blood rites to make themselves into beings
                    who were possessed of both life and death, the only type of
                    creature who could live within Enoch.
                    Reading it further though we can come upon this;

                    Originally posted by Lore of the Bloodlines, pg 68
                    Make no mistake… there is no Clan more an enemy
                    to the Nagaraja than the Followers of Set. Regardless of
                    whether a sire sticks around to teach that to their childer,
                    it is a deep-rooted urge that each of us has to rid the world
                    of any Setite. They are liars, cheats, and swindlers, and are
                    extremely proud of it. A Nagaraja’s blood boils in their
                    presence, though the truly gifted can hold themselves back
                    from annihilating their enemy on sight. As the elders tell it,
                    the entire purpose our bloodline was created was to rid the
                    world (the current one or the afterlife, whichever you prefer) of these wretched creatures and everything they stand for.
                    Seems during the modern nights, the Followers of Set
                    have burned almost as many bridges as we have. They’re
                    allowed more freedom of movement, but a wise Kindred
                    won’t believe a word they say, regardless of how well they
                    sell their snake oil.
                    Having a whole written section dedicated to the Followers of Set in their chapter in LotB is unusual. This spiel would be some evidence pointing that even with the book not mentioning specifically that Setite blood was used to make them unlike Guide to the TalMaRahe did, it could be inferenced that the Setites are somewhat involved aswell with the Nagaraja in some shape or form.
                    Last edited by Shakanaka; 11-06-2020, 08:30 PM.


                    Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                    • Originally posted by Frontline989 View Post
                      The Hecata are a sect not a clan.
                      Damn Skippy...

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                      • Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                        In my own Vampire chronicles, I use that actually as the origin of some of the more mysterious Bloodlines like the Daughters of Cacophony, Lhiannan, or Nagaraja. They started because somebody transformed into the equivalent of a 7th generation vampire for some reason (making a pact with "Satan" or other involvement with the Dark Powers) and embraced more. They are physically indistinguishable from Cainites and Kindred who descend from an antedeluvian.
                        I use it as the origin of the Ministry/Followers of Set, with the caveat that it was many someones—generally Set's brides—over time, and they became the equivalent of 4th generation Cainites rather than 7th.

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