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  • MyWifeIsScary
    started a topic Why is Hecata?

    Why is Hecata?

    This one flew under the radar a bit for me because the Giovanni have gotta be the most peripheral clan there is (They've really got a whole 'leave us alone' kinda vibe to em) But when I read up and found all the different varieties of corpse fuckers had decided to hold hands and join together, even though they hate eachother, and that they now have the same blood, I've been left aghast.

    What the fuck? Can someone explain how this works? (or doesn't). Seems like another case of idiot ball.

  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Damian May View Post

    For certain beings this is certainly true- though only a small number Ba Jiao gui or some pocong for instance, others are reborn into a physical body that is not entirely stable, others are transformed by undeath into things utterly inhuman, others are witches/leyak/balian/dukun who intentionally cultivate their transformation and rebirth....some are malleable in shape, some resemble corpses...some look much as they did in life until their hungers are awakened. Some marry and have children, always wary that one may learn their true nature.

    All those are pretty doable with KotE as is.

    You seem super fixated on the Sino-Hungry Ghosts, which is fine but they are the least interesting part of the setting.

    You may well not be interested in going further than the Lost Boys, Moonlight or Twilight for inspiration in your games, which is fine but I prefer options and I love research....I'm pretty sure theres room for both though I'm gathering you don't play any other OWoD games other than VtM I would urge you to look further, you might like what you find.

    Also I'm pretty sure you don't actually speak for all VtM fans, unless there was a vote I'm unaware of, so probably best to drop an IMHO into your posts occasionally.
    What I mean is that the attempt to shove the KOTE into Vampire: The Masquerade was an attempt to avoid cultural appropriation but, in the attempt to do so, actually stumbled into it anyway. Vampires, especially V:TM vampires, are popular globally because they replicate the creations of Hollywood in most famous movie adaptations. Players in China, Japan, Korea, and other locations that want to play V:TM generally are attracted to the game because of such.

    However, the various myths of said regions getting tied to V:TM vampires or trying to fill their "niche" worl pretty badly because they aren't generally adapted the same way to Western vampires.

    It's not taht an interesting game couldn't be made from the Wan Kuei but that the combination of several VERY different countries multitude of monsters into one single splat (like if werewolves and vampires and zombies were all the same creature) AND saying, "They're the Kindred of Asia in place of the Cainites" doesn't work very well versus just inserting the monsters people who want to play are attracted to in the first place.

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  • Damian May
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    A friend of mine said that Hungry Ghosts would be....Wraith characters.
    For certain beings this is certainly true- though only a small number Ba Jiao gui or some pocong for instance, others are reborn into a physical body that is not entirely stable, others are transformed by undeath into things utterly inhuman, others are witches/leyak/balian/dukun who intentionally cultivate their transformation and rebirth....some are malleable in shape, some resemble corpses...some look much as they did in life until their hungers are awakened. Some marry and have children, always wary that one may learn their true nature.

    All those are pretty doable with KotE as is.

    You seem super fixated on the Sino-Hungry Ghosts, which is fine but they are the least interesting part of the setting.

    You may well not be interested in going further than the Lost Boys, Moonlight or Twilight for inspiration in your games, which is fine but I prefer options and I love research....I'm pretty sure theres room for both though I'm gathering you don't play any other OWoD games other than VtM I would urge you to look further, you might like what you find.

    Also I'm pretty sure you don't actually speak for all VtM fans, unless there was a vote I'm unaware of, so probably best to drop an IMHO into your posts occasionally.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Justycar View Post

    That it is interesting, I have not researched the matter, but I have seen only LARPS in Korea and Japan based in the Camarilla and Anarch clans, not the Cathayans. Probably, theses books suffer for the same problem that most of the non american cities of Vampire the Masquerade, they are not written by natives and they are based in our western vision of China, Japan and Korea and some prejudices. The only eastern by night that I have found exquisitely written is Cairo by Night and it had a native author (Suleiman). Even I found some pieces of european lore hilarious in the old books of the 90´s, as the bull ghouls in Spain described in World of Darkness 1. And I my self love so much the Victorian age books, but I have read bad reviews of the depiction of the city in the London by Night. And not to mention the Berlin by Night, a very "peculiar" By night. So, I cannot blame Onyx Path to do not return to Kindred of the East, the would need someone from these countries to write the book and, maybe, they are not capable to do it without erasing all and starting again from zero.
    I think part of it may be the fact that people are factually incorrect about what people want from V:TM. They don't want mythology of their own country, they want to play in the world of Western vampires that are a recent creation of pop culture. Pretty undead horrors living behind the scenes. Which is actually a racist concept by itself that adapting the Hungry Ghosts of Hong Kong to because, they're NOT THAT. They have never been that because that's a Western thing created in Western movies. It's attempting to shoe-horn a somewhat similar concept into a role they are completely unrelated to.

    A friend of mine said that Hungry Ghosts would be....Wraith characters.

    Freddy Krueger versus Dracula.

    You don't have Hungry Ghosts controlling the Triads (which actually have lots of rituals against being cursed--so it makes even less sense) and business and so on so they might as well be Western vampires.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 02-14-2020, 11:41 AM.

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  • Justycar
    replied
    Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post

    This is actually pretty close to my canon in my V20 games. The Hungry Ghost/Wan Kuei/Ki-jin/whatever are not bound solely to India and Eastern Asia cultures and faiths, anyone can become one, anywhere. There are regions where they are more likely to rise (and said regions are spreading, though no one is entirely sure why) such as India and Eastern Asia. And even if the Cainites could wipe out the Wan Kuei, more would inevitably rise.
    At least in the San Francisco by night sourcebook, it is stated that the resurrection of the catayans is a matter of culture and beliefs (but not race, of course). In fact in this book they defend that the spread and learning of their culture was so important that, even when a dharma-less Wankei is born and they cannot teach him the ways of the dharmas, the become kanbujan, some kind of Caitiff. In San Francisco, given the size of the eastern community, they are re-birthing. And theses kanbujians are never considered Wan kei, they are the thin bloods of the eastern vampire, as the dhampirs or worse.

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  • Justycar
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    Also, every time I talk to my fellow V:TM players in Hong Kong and Taiwan they HATE The Kuei-Jin and DO NOT want them revised. They want to play as vampires part of the Camarilla and Western vampires because that's why they bought the game. They want to be Tremere, Brujah, and Ventrue in Hong Kong. This is apparently a big deal for all translated fan-made supplements and groups there.
    That it is interesting, I have not researched the matter, but I have seen only LARPS in Korea and Japan based in the Camarilla and Anarch clans, not the Cathayans. Probably, theses books suffer for the same problem that most of the non american cities of Vampire the Masquerade, they are not written by natives and they are based in our western vision of China, Japan and Korea and some prejudices. The only eastern by night that I have found exquisitely written is Cairo by Night and it had a native author (Suleiman). Even I found some pieces of european lore hilarious in the old books of the 90´s, as the bull ghouls in Spain described in World of Darkness 1. And I my self love so much the Victorian age books, but I have read bad reviews of the depiction of the city in the London by Night. And not to mention the Berlin by Night, a very "peculiar" By night. So, I cannot blame Onyx Path to do not return to Kindred of the East, the would need someone from these countries to write the book and, maybe, they are not capable to do it without erasing all and starting again from zero.

    Leave a comment:


  • Damian May
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    And you go into a haunted house in V:TM:B

    but it should be on the fringes.
    If you say so. I guess it might be different if I ever set a Chronicle in the US.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Damian May View Post

    Wraith and Garou do interact. Silent Striders, Uktena, The Ivory Priests...
    And you go into a haunted house in V:TM:B

    but it should be on the fringes.

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  • AkatsukiLeader13
    replied
    Originally posted by Damian May View Post

    Why couldn't they play Cainites in Hong Kong or Taiwan, hell canonically there's dozens of the little buggers there and all throughout Asia. Anecdotally my Malay, Indo and Pinot player's love KotE because they ( with a bit of research and kitbashing) fit so much better with traditional ' vampires believe than the Cainites do.

    I would have preferred to have, and do have in my chronicles, creatures similar to the Hungry Ghosts existing throughout the world. Cainites are this weird 'viral' condition that arose tens of thousands of years ago in Northern Africa/The Levant/proto-Sumeria and it just keeps spreading like a sentient cancer across the world. Cainites as an invasive species that can reproduce 100x faster than the native species works pretty well, especially in Australia and SE Asia.

    Once Cainites are established the locals are in trouble, Cainites will hunt down and destroy newborn Hungry Ghosts either on purpose or on the mistaken assumption that they are weights or cannibal corpses. They'll spread and take over areas of influence and once they do so there's no hope to re-establish what was lost except to retreat into isolation, bunker down and wait until they inevitably spread to the area you have fled to.
    This is actually pretty close to my canon in my V20 games. The Hungry Ghost/Wan Kuei/Ki-jin/whatever are not bound solely to India and Eastern Asia cultures and faiths, anyone can become one, anywhere. There are regions where they are more likely to rise (and said regions are spreading, though no one is entirely sure why) such as India and Eastern Asia. And even if the Cainites could wipe out the Wan Kuei, more would inevitably rise.

    In fact, some that rise in Cainite and overcome their initial freak or maintain control of themselves, get mistaken for Caitiff. And of course those that don't are mistaken for wights.

    On the political scene, most of the Wan Kuei Courts have realized that direct aggression against the Cainites and the general dismissive attitude towards the younger generations of Wan Kuei and their ideas, was the wrong approach, taking a more diplomatic approach to things. To make a long story short, the Chinese Courts started to negoitate with Camarilla, using the Giovanni as a neutral third party, ultimately leading to the Convention of Sydney between the representatives of the Camarilla, Wan Kuei Courts and Giovanni. It would result in an end of hostilities between the Cam and the Wan Kuei. San Franciso would remain in the hands of the Wan Kuei in exchange for Hong Kong remaining in Camarilla. Those Wan Kuei enclaves in Camarilla cities would be permitted to remain as independent domains provided their members did not openly interfere in the affairs of the Camarilla Court and vice versa. Similarly travel within their respective territories is permitted so long as the traveler(s) present themselves to the local ruler, state their intentions and obey local rules.

    Of course the Giovanni got a slice of that as well and have used it to further their position as the middle man between East and West, as they also cut deals behind their backs.

    The New Promise Mandarinate has become the independent New Dawn Courts after the Quincunx's general mishandling of the whole venture and the growing frustration of the younger Wan Kuei. Since then it's become something of a mixing pot of Wan Kuei as younger Wan Kuei as well as outcasts and dissidents have moved there.

    Amusingly a friend used that idea in a game the other year, creating a coterie of British Wan Kuei who had died in India during the days of the British Raj. Amusingly when he first presented them, they were a bunch of old aristocratic fossils that one of the Primeogen, the Ventrue if I remember right, was attempting to impress so he could get an ear on the local Wan Kuei. Except we ultimately discovered that they weren't that at all. While they had been rich, self-centered assholes in life, the trip to Hell and back and then their unlives in a country that was not exactly keen on the British taught them humility. They had even come to see it as their duty to seek out other powerful self-centered assholes and teach them a lesson in humility as they had been which was what they were doing to said Primogen.

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  • Damian May
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    Different strokes for different folks but I enjoy all the supernaturals interacting having a common origin.

    Hungry Ghosts and Cainites shouldn't interact anymore than Wraiths and Lupines.
    Wraith and Garou do interact. Silent Striders, Uktena, The Ivory Priests...

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Damian May View Post

    Correct, in my WoD I tend to have the 'vampires' of Africa be a conglomerate of Hungry Ghosts, Cainites, Ananasi and other beings which may or may not be proto-Cainites.

    It's a massive and diverse continent and having an eclectic mix of warring and cooperating factions allows me to use the immense variety and breadth of folklore and myth to examine themes of colonisation, survival, pride etc.
    Different strokes for different folks but I enjoy all the supernaturals interacting having a common origin.

    Hungry Ghosts and Cainites shouldn't interact anymore than Wraiths and Lupines.

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  • Damian May
    replied
    Originally posted by Taggie View Post



    KotEK has the core problem of being more Cainites...which kinda declares Judeo- Chrisitian myth is right, and is colonising the world
    Correct, in my WoD I tend to have the 'vampires' of Africa be a conglomerate of Hungry Ghosts, Cainites, Ananasi and other beings which may or may not be proto-Cainites.

    It's a massive and diverse continent and having an eclectic mix of warring and cooperating factions allows me to use the immense variety and breadth of folklore and myth to examine themes of colonisation, survival, pride etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • Damian May
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    I find the idea of being upset about your fictional monsters tied to Judeo-Christian myth being global as extremely First World Problems.

    Part of the issue is that if the Kindred of the East are not Cainites then they have no reason to be in Vampire: The Masquerade.

    Also, every time I talk to my fellow V:TM players in Hong Kong and Taiwan they HATE The Kuei-Jin and DO NOT want them revised. They want to play as vampires part of the Camarilla and Western vampires because that's why they bought the game. They want to be Tremere, Brujah, and Ventrue in Hong Kong. This is apparently a big deal for all translated fan-made supplements and groups there.

    But to make a counterpoint.

    Would you be upset if vampire had gone with the idea that the first vampire was Marduk, Kronos, or Mikaboshi?
    Why couldn't they play Cainites in Hong Kong or Taiwan, hell canonically there's dozens of the little buggers there and all throughout Asia. Anecdotally my Malay, Indo and Pinoy player's love KotE because they ( with a bit of research and kitbashing) fit so much better with traditional ' vampires believe than the Cainites do.

    I would have preferred to have, and do have in my chronicles, creatures similar to the Hungry Ghosts existing throughout the world. Cainites are this weird 'viral' condition that arose tens of thousands of years ago in Northern Africa/The Levant/proto-Sumeria and it just keeps spreading like a sentient cancer across the world. Cainites as an invasive species that can reproduce 100x faster than the native species works pretty well, especially in Australia and SE Asia.

    Once Cainites are established the locals are in trouble, Cainites will hunt down and destroy newborn Hungry Ghosts either on purpose or on the mistaken assumption that they are weights or cannibal corpses. They'll spread and take over areas of influence and once they do so there's no hope to re-establish what was lost except to retreat into isolation, bunker down and wait until they inevitably spread to the area you have fled to.
    Last edited by Damian May; 02-12-2020, 07:36 PM.

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  • Taggie
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    Ambiguity makes horror better.

    I don't think you can insert an entirely new supernatural into the same splat, though. Kuei-Jin are like Werewolves competing for the Prinecdom.
    You would need to ditch the metaplot, generations, and blood potency and rewrite disciplines and the clans entirely to add any ambiguity to VtM. Or you could have different competing monsters, achieve the same goals and not import even more requiem.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    I also note that Caine is a Middle Eastern mythological figure, not a European one. Europe adopted a religion of the Middle East, not the other way around.

    I also loathe differentiating in-universe mythology with my world-building. I feel like you should do your best to have a single coherent monster origin if you can.

    Originally posted by marin View Post
    Have you read the KotEK chapter in Beckett's Jyhad Diary? Because it pokes and prods at Cainite myth, suggesting that blood-drinkers have been around for all of human history, beyond the timespan of the Book of Nod, that some vampires are self-created, that the Western clans are spawned of elders who refused to relinquish their blood and their power to their juniors... and pretty much makes the point that the European vampires are likely to bring their shit down onto everyone else's heads regardless of what they might have to say on the matter.
    Yeah, I prefer the Caine myth.

    Still, its' also possible to make it so no one knows the origins of vampiredom. That is also a good alternative and it's an in-universe mystery. It's one of my issues that Werewolf is a little TOO wedded to its concept being 100% true.

    Ambiguity makes horror better.

    I don't think you can insert an entirely new supernatural into the same splat, though. Kuei-Jin are like Werewolves competing for the Prinecdom.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 02-12-2020, 06:24 PM.

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