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  • Why is Hecata?

    This one flew under the radar a bit for me because the Giovanni have gotta be the most peripheral clan there is (They've really got a whole 'leave us alone' kinda vibe to em) But when I read up and found all the different varieties of corpse fuckers had decided to hold hands and join together, even though they hate eachother, and that they now have the same blood, I've been left aghast.

    What the fuck? Can someone explain how this works? (or doesn't). Seems like another case of idiot ball.


    For ease of reference: "VTM" means every edition that isn't V5, because V5... it's a very different product, and I don't want to write "Pre-V5" because that's lame and I'm lazy.

  • #2
    Meta motive. 'Cause the game developers do not want bloodlines in their game. They want it turned into VtR.

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    • #3
      The Giovanni got decimated by the Second Inquisition, and so they were looking for allies. Meanwhile the Camarilla has shut it's doors to outsiders and the Sabbat is ... somewhere. So their options weren't that great.

      That's how I see it anyway.

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      • #4
        So, compiling history from the Hecata chapter in CotBG.

        Many younger Giovanni became disillusioned with methodologies of their elders, such as the way that things like Proxy Kiss went from being an already-disgusting initiation to ghoulhood to a political tool and, in many instances, torture and murder, with internal strife coming from the murder of other Giovanni's perspective childer, among other political 'games'. Continued political manipulation and machinations, a lack of upward mobility in the Clan as the Elders became more hegemonic, and other factors led to a number of younger Giovanni 'breaking' from the clan's elder-held ways and striking out on their own.

        Over time, the Giovanni who left met with a number of the other necromantic clans and, through conflict, between each other old prejudicies were challenged by the interactions, because... well, everyone involved hates the majority of the Giovanni elders, from the Cappadocians who hate them because of the pogroms (and the fact that Augustus killed Cappadocius before they could) to the younger Giovanni who were finding less and less upward mobility, to even those prospective Giovanni being murdered due to family infighting. Some information also says that some Giovanni were already in clandestine meetings and negotiations for various things, like necromantic artifacts and such, here and there with the other necromantic clans.

        This splitting off led to a 'reunion' of sorts (particularly after the big meeting put forth in Beckett's Jyhad Diary points to this), between all the Clans of Death, with the younger Giovanni joining because of their issues with their elders (or being press-ganged into it) over time. Spurred on by the elders of the non-Giovanni clans and, surprisingly, a few Giovanni elders, the conglomerate moved on the Giovanni's Venetian holdings, and non-aligned Giovanni elders, as a whole. Augustus was (by most accounts) destroyed (it's cited as the reason there are now more spectres that have been attacking the Hecata), the sycophants to Augustus that survived the initial conflict are being weeded out and destroyed, and the Giovanni themselves are fractured: part in the Hecata, and part existing as they have always existed, but now set upon by the Hecata as an outside force.

        None of this is 'holding hands' though, and the joining together is not 'yay we're one big happy family now!' It's 'we are banded together for mutual goals and support, and information trade, but hate still exists'. Most youngers may not care about those things, but that doesn't mean those thoughts aren't there in the back of many Hecata's heads, and can rise back up when a betrayal happens for personal gain. There are definitely still vendettas, and the book mentions that sometimes they are too big to put aside, but on the whole both clans are now filled with neonates, fledglings, or even ancillae who don't really care what happened to X or Y elder in the Ye Olden Times.

        The Hecata function as a conglomerate with a fair bit of factionalism, with the Giovanni acting as the 'common face' of the Clan, due to them being more populous, who still present a similar 'mercenary' attitude towards the rest of the world that they always have. Harbingers (and to a lesser extent, the lesser number of Cappadocians in the Hecata) function as spies, information brokers and advisers, particularly with the knowledge they have of things like the Sabbat. The Samedi work a lot in a spiritual advisory capacity, working their unique methods. The Lamiae are the strong arm, doing what they always did, after their 'rebirth'. They all move among each other and work together, but each has a role and goal within the Hecata at large. They're all also preparing for the expiration of The Promise, which there are a few things said about in regards to, but nothing major.

        As far as the 'same blood' there's a lot of speculation and conjecture in the book. One conjecture states that the Capuchin did a ritual to 'detach' their blood from the source which has altered it, while another conjecture states that the Clans all come from the same source, and the 'reunion' is causing everything to resonate back to the 'baseline' that they come from, while another talks about the change in terms of old purges and why they don't feel the Beckoning. There is no concrete answer like most things in V5; you have conjecture and theory and options (so that it's open for STs to play around with).
        Last edited by elmerg; 02-08-2020, 12:46 PM.

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        • #5
          But nobody asks How is Hecata. ಠ╭╮ಠ

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          • #6
            It's a bit more complicated than that. The Giovanni were hit on three sides, from the Second Inquisition, the Harbingers and from within by angry, fed up and ambitious younger Giovanni, meaning that the Giovanni Elders suffered the worst in these actions.

            From what I've read so far of the manuscript, the younger Giovanni were growing increasingly fed up with the rigid control of the Giovanni Elders over the Clan and started reaching out to their fellow younger members of the Necromancer Bloodlines and started to discover that the lies the Elders had been telling them for generations was BS. And it made them increasing angry at their Elders. It also didn't hurt that the Bloodlines were willing to share Necromanic lore with these Giovanni. Of course it does also note that Elders of those Bloodlines and even some among the Giovanni were stoking those fires for their own ends.

            Also they apparently found out that the non-aggression pact with the Camarilla had a five hundred year timelimit which they're nearly at. Whether that's true or the manipulations of someone is unknown. But it has pissed off many Giovanni, again many of them the younger ones that would be the frontline soldiers of such a war.

            Basically the whole situation became the original Anarch Revolt in micro. Younger Kindred rising up against tyrannical Elders while the Inquisition is burning everything. The end result being Augustus himself disappearing while many Giovanni Elders getting killed along with many of the Giovanni holdings suffering.

            Unsurprisingly in the aftermath, everyone realized that while they had all gotten their payback on Augustus and the controlling Elders, they still had to contend with the Second Inquisition and with the fear of the Promise pact with the Camarilla ending, they all started to sit down and talk about how to handle the situation leading to the Giovanni and all the Bloodlines of Death coming together to form a new Clan of Death.

            It's suggested though not outright said that the Capuchin had a hand in creating the Hecata, perhaps a rather large hand in it. In fact, one account claims that the Capuchin was the one that created the name, suggesting that it was the original name of the Cappdocians.

            One thing I don't like so far about the Hecata in the manuscript is that while the fluff section of the Clan mentions repeatedly about the Bloodlines still having their Bloodline Flaws, the character creation section has their blood suddenly changing leading to them all having the Giovanni Flaw. Despite bringing up the other Flaws and providing alternate Discipline spreads of the other Bloodlines. Frankly it's a weird exclusion.

            They are also currently the only known Clan immune to the Beckoning though no one is entirely sure why. Theories range from them being the only Clan to truly destroy their founder* to the purges carried out in the history of the Cappadocians and Giovanni (including the recent culling) to something the Capuchin did.

            *Which if true might also be the same for the Ravnos with the Week of Nightmares.


            Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
              But nobody asks How is Hecata. ಠ╭╮ಠ
              The Hecata is fine. It thanks you for asking.

              And apparently so is Serena from Vampire: the Masquerade Redemption. She's back and in the Hecata as well. Which I do find a bit surprising as Redemption never had the wider appeal and popularity of Bloodlines 1 and I doubted we'd ever anything from it besides old Christof and his girl. Well, besides the characters that were already established in VtM like Ecaterina.


              Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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              • #8
                My theory.
                Augustus was a problem, so at the Family Reunion event, there was a great feast of Augustus's body. Elders of each bloodline drank his blood and ate his body. All with the support of blood magic. By drinking third generation blood they became one family, one blood, one clan, one Hecata.
                Cappadocius is still a dead antediluvian of clan of death.
                Last edited by Mr. Stick; 02-08-2020, 02:49 PM.

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                • #9
                  Except for the Nagaraja, which they are doing something with but I am not sure what, the Giovanni, Capadocians/Harbingers, Lamia, and Samedi all share blood. With the proper stimuli, them coming together is fine.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by omenseer View Post
                    Except for the Nagaraja, which they are doing something with but I am not sure what, the Giovanni, Capadocians/Harbingers, Lamia, and Samedi all share blood. With the proper stimuli, them coming together is fine.

                    Nagaraja are in there, though they're mianly mentioned in the context of being monstrous, cold and iron-willed but only a few handfuls in the Hecata.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post
                      Good stuff
                      Yeah... ah... this actually makes some sense... for a sect. I actually like this narrative. I don't like that it coincides with the Camarilla losing their marbles, but if it were V20 with this, I'd be down with that (Though I don't know why they wouldn't just join the Camarilla; surely dispersing into other sects would be the best way to leverage their services?)

                      Though there are two huge questions still
                      Why are they kinda-all-one blood but not?
                      And why would the Nagajara join them? (Assuming they're not all joining together for Death-clan primogens in the cam)


                      For ease of reference: "VTM" means every edition that isn't V5, because V5... it's a very different product, and I don't want to write "Pre-V5" because that's lame and I'm lazy.

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                      • #12
                        They all descend from the same antediluvian and one of the mystical parts of the Family Reunion is a syncing of the blood. Although there are options to differentiate characters.

                        I imagine a similar thing happened when the Tremere became a clan and not just a errant group of Tzimisce.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                          Why are they kinda-all-one blood but not?
                          And why would the Nagajara join them? (Assuming they're not all joining together for Death-clan primogens in the cam)
                          Both responses to you answered the question of 'why are the kinda all one blood'. The answer is 'we don't know exactly, but there are theories'.

                          Currently they can't join the Camarilla; one, the Camarilla is very discrete in who they allow in now, and two, the Promise that prevents them from actively involving themselves (more or less) in the Camarilla's affairs (and by and large, the Jyhad) hasn't yet expired.

                          As far as the Nagaraja, they're not mentioned in super great detail, but there is mention on their Loresheet that the small number who are part of the Hecata came to the Family Reunion stating something drove them out of their current areas of influence in India. We still only have the manuscript though, so it may change and be expanded in the end.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            Yeah... ah... this actually makes some sense... for a sect. I actually like this narrative. I don't like that it coincides with the Camarilla losing their marbles, but if it were V20 with this, I'd be down with that (Though I don't know why they wouldn't just join the Camarilla; surely dispersing into other sects would be the best way to leverage their services?)

                            Though there are two huge questions still
                            Why are they kinda-all-one blood but not?
                            And why would the Nagajara join them? (Assuming they're not all joining together for Death-clan primogens in the cam)
                            They didn't join the Camarilla for two reasons. First the Giovanni rather enjoyed their nearly five hundred years of freedom from the Cam and didn't want to lose their autonomy. Second, the Cappadocian and Harbinger wings of the Clan are bitter over the Cam turning a blind eye to the purges the Giovanni conducted.

                            As for your questions, with the exception of the Nagajara and possibly the Samedi, they are descended on the same blood. The event that saw the birth of the Hecata is the Family Reunion. While we only get scraps on the Reunion itself, it comes across as event like the Convention of Thrones, it spanned several nights of debate and negotiation between the various Bloodlines. Something happened at the end that brought their Blood together. We don't know what but it changed their Blood, bringing it all into one. That said, in looking to see if there was more info on some of these matters I got to the lore sheets of the book, which a bunch of the Hecata exclusive ones are all about the Bloodlines that make up the Clan (along with several of the major Giovanni families) which give them traits that call back to their previous Bloodline state. For example, Nagajara can still sustain themselves with flesh or the Lamiae still possess the plague in their bite though in a lesser, non-lethal state.

                            As for the Nagajara joining the Hecata, we don't entirely know why but it does comment that they 'showed up to the Family Reunion, claiming some kind of catastrophe drove them out of their home.' Given that they were based primarily in India and had connections with the True Hand, it's possible that they suffered some damage from Week of Nightmares and if it happened, the Sixth Great Maelstrom of the Underworld as well as the actions of the Second Inquisition. Though it should be noted that the Cam book reveals that India is one of the places the SI has had issues with.

                            My theory is that it was the Week of Nightmares and/or Sixth Great Maelstrom that caused havoc for them and damaged the Bloodlines, leading to them reaching out to the like-minded Necromancers as the Anarchs and Cam aren't too likely to welcome them to the fold given their feeding habits prior to the Reunion.

                            EDIT: Also I forgot but the Nagarjara HATE the Setites who are now part of the Anarchs. So they wouldn't be keen on joining them at that point.
                            Last edited by AkatsukiLeader13; 02-08-2020, 05:34 PM.


                            Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by blailton View Post
                              Meta motive. 'Cause the game developers do not want bloodlines in their game. They want it turned into VtR.
                              Err... VTR has a fuckton of bloodlines.


                              https://www.deviantart.com/cicerondixit/gallery

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