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  • #31
    Originally posted by IllithidActivity View Post
    Question from a noob - I see that some of the Loresheets reference abilities that can be used "once per game." What does that mean? Once per session? Story? Chronicle?
    Unknown. It's not a standard term; presumably it was meant to be either "once per session/chapter", "once per story", or "once per chronicle". (Errata's been submitted about that.)

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Taggie View Post

      Admittedly didn't stay with Requiem, but weren't Belial and VII totally unplayable as written, and stuck with Humanity?
      Humanity was utterly unplayable not because it is how good you are, it's how inhuman you act.

      If so, and if you are right I fear that the entire point of the Sabbat, and my favourite part of VtM, the Paths/Roads will be ditched, or mutilated onto the horrible Conviction system, far less granular and evocative than the hierarchies of Sins and less involving. And no, Lore sheets will not fix it, if the Church of Caine as described is supposed to replace the Road it... Doesn't, at all.
      Personally, I feel like the Path system was badly designed with inability to do much interaction like "suffering a humane Cainite to live" and other things. The new Humanity system is incredibly forgiving and now we have Loresheets that allow things like, "if you kill a fellow Kindred or human for your Path you don't have to make a Humanity check."


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post





        Personally, I feel like the Path system was badly designed with inability to do much interaction like "suffering a humane Cainite to live" and other things. The new Humanity system is incredibly forgiving and now we have Loresheets that allow things like, "if you kill a fellow Kindred or human for your Path you don't have to make a Humanity check."
        That forgiving nature is the problem. Humanity and Path/Road are the supposed to be the straight and narrow that lets you hold onto self control, you should seriously think about actions based on the sins, you should be punished for slipping, if you are inhuman you do not have humanity, full stop, you have something else, something that should be as hard. I know it's 'just a name' but it's a red line, if the Sabbat have a humanity stat they are not the Sabbat, especially combined with the way they are being turned into this editions Orcs. Basically, I see Roads the way the designers seem to see hunger, they are the core, they are the reason to play the game.
        Last edited by Taggie; 02-17-2020, 03:44 PM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Taggie View Post

          That forgiving nature is the problem. Humanity and Path/Road are the supposed to be the straight and narrow that lets you hold onto self control, you should seriously think about actions based on the sins, you should be punished for slipping, if you are inhuman you do not have humanity, full stop, you have something else, I know it's 'just a name' but it's a red line, if the Sabbat have a humanity stat they are not the Sabbat, especially combined with the way they are being turned into this editions Orcs.
          You realize 99% of the Sabbat were on Humanity, right? They had Humanity scores of 1-4 but like only 1 out of a 100 had the mental fortitude to get on a Path. This has been true since Revised. It was a major part of the GUIDE TO THE SABBAT and Justin Achilli's revisions to the setting. Indeed, the rules for getting on a Path meant a punishing series of rolls.

          "All Sabbat are on paths" was a 2nd Edition thing.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            You realize 99% of the Sabbat were on Humanity, right? They had Humanity scores of 1-4 but like only 1 out of a 100 had the mental fortitude to get on a Path. This has been true since Revised. It was a major part of the GUIDE TO THE SABBAT and Justin Achilli's revisions to the setting. Indeed, the rules for getting on a Path meant a punishing series of rolls.

            "All Sabbat are on paths" was a 2nd Edition thing.


            So? You had wannabes and Sabbat. (Or ignored that change, as it made zero sense and ruined the sect to have True Sabbat not on paths.) I repeat, if their is not way to remove Humanity and replace it, with a proper heirachy of sins, not this Twilight tribute touchstone system. then it is not the sabbat. (twilight tribute is the kind interpretation, being forced to be the molester in multiple incredibly abusive and sickening relationships is the more likely. Distinctly not the kind of monster I am looking for in a game.)
            Last edited by Taggie; 02-17-2020, 04:15 PM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Taggie View Post
              So? You had wannabes and Sabbat. (Or ignored that change, as it made zero sense and ruined the sect.) I repeat, if their is not way to remove Humanity and replace it, with a proper heirachy of sins, not this Twilight tribute touchstone system. then it is not the sabbat. (twilight tribute is the kind interpretation, being forced to be the molester in multiple incredibly abusive and sickening relationships is the more likely. Distinctly not the kind of monster I am looking for in a game.)
              I think you have a very skewed idea about how Revised and V5 Humanity works. According to the Revised Humanity charts, a vampire with 4 Humanity thinks humans are cattle and doesn't believe that killing them is wrong. Humanity 3 and Lower are sadistic and violent serial killers.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                I think you have a very skewed idea about how Revised and V5 Humanity works. According to the Revised Humanity charts, a vampire with 4 Humanity thinks humans are cattle and doesn't believe that killing them is wrong. Humanity 3 and Lower are sadistic and violent serial killers.


                Which isn't the point. Sadistic serial killer is for the Anarchs/Cam. Sadistic serial killer is still human. The utter inhumanity of the paths (done better with the Roads I admit) is the point, freedom from Humanity, freedom to be a vampire, pursuing twisted enlightenment.
                Last edited by Taggie; 02-17-2020, 04:46 PM.

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                • #38
                  Yeah, playing someone with Honorable Accord 10 is NOT the same as playing someone with 3 Humanity, just because neither thinks of humans as anything but food.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
                    Yeah, playing someone with Honorable Accord 10 is NOT the same as playing someone with 3 Humanity, just because neither thinks of humans as anything but food.
                    I also think that a Honorable Accord 10 character should be as rare as a Humanity 10 Camarilla member.

                    A single legendary paragon of their faith.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                      I also think that a Honorable Accord 10 character should be as rare as a Humanity 10 Camarilla member.

                      A single legendary paragon of their faith.
                      True, but they should actually have a chance to exist. Which is the point. Lore sheets and tenets cannot cover that.

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                      • #41
                        My unsolicited two cents on the matter is that it was entirely fine and good that switching from Humanity to a Path was hard in later editions, because part of the Sabbat's whole thing was suffering a high enough mortality rate that mass embraces were justified. The turnover rate was just too high for that many Path teachers to bother, and that was before Gehenna.

                        It's one of the sect's defining ironies. They've got a ticket to transcendent post-human immortality, and they squander their new recruits' eternal lives by throwing them into deadly battles. A Sabbat vato who has the necessary quality of mind to pursue a Path is rare enough; finding someone who cares enough to teach the Path is rarer still.
                        Last edited by Reasor; 02-17-2020, 11:12 PM.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Reasor View Post
                          My unsolicited two cents on the matter is that it was entirely fine and good that switching from Humanity to a Path was hard in later editions, because part of the Sabbat's whole thing was suffering a high enough mortality rate that mass embraces were justified. The turnover rate was just too high for that many Path teachers to bother, and that was before Gehenna.

                          It's one of the sect's defining ironies. They've got a ticket to transcendent post-human immortality, and they squander their new recruits' eternal lives by throwing them into deadly battles. A Sabbat vato who has the necessary quality of mind to pursue a Path is rare enough; finding someone who cares enough to teach the Path is rarer still.
                          That's one way of looking it.

                          Another way is that the Paths of Enlightenment are incredibly hard to adapt your brain to. Only a few individuals are spiritually, intellectually, and emotionally enlightened to actually get on a Path.

                          Much like Golconda, it's not a solution for all Kindred.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                            That's one way of looking it.

                            Another way is that the Paths of Enlightenment are incredibly hard to adapt your brain to. Only a few individuals are spiritually, intellectually, and emotionally enlightened to actually get on a Path.

                            Much like Golconda, it's not a solution for all Kindred.
                            In that case just don't bother having the Sabbat, just off screen them and have the courage to tell us that is what's happening.
                            Last edited by Taggie; 02-18-2020, 12:58 AM.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                              Rubbish. The Path of humanity should be the super rare, extreme delusion, if we use your logic.
                              It's what humans are born with and grow up with.

                              Paths are an artificial construct designed to reign in the Beast that you drill into your mind with black magic and evil rites.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                It's what humans are born with and grow up with.

                                Paths are an artificial construct designed to reign in the Beast that you drill into your mind with black magic and evil rites.
                                Which is the point of the Sabbat, if they aren't going to be the inhuman religious zealots, properly supported by Paths, as an actual system, not the Lore sheet dumpster fire and frankly sickening Touchstone system, tell us so the decision to whether to avoid all further WoD products can be made

                                . On humanity, yes its purely human which is why, if paths should be impossible, the beast that strong, humanity should achieve nothing versus its overwhelming power
                                Last edited by Taggie; 02-18-2020, 02:09 AM.

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