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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
    Does that mean that a police detective has 4 dice for physical rolls, meaning that his Strength plus his skill on some generic physical activity is 4, not his physical attributes.
    Yep that’s exactly right. Likewise, their Dexterity + Firearms is 5 but in what combination is indeterminate.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post

      Yep that’s exactly right. Likewise, their Dexterity + Firearms is 5 but in what combination is indeterminate.
      Alright, that makes more sense. A police detective might have a Dexterity of 2 and a Firearms skill of 3 which isn't unreasonable.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

        And they skipped (while copying other parts from it) how VtR 2e ensures this feature has a lot of benefits to the idea that Vampire is supposed to be a horror genre game: by making power fantasies a Humanity trap.

        In VtR 2e's Humanity mechanics, the penalties for being an awesome immortal monster that tanks gunfire and rips the engine out of a cop's car before beating him to death with it start very slight. Your sire and other senior vampires are trying to warn you not to do it, but like a teen with their first car speeding and not getting more than a warning from the cops, neonates don't appreciate the consequences until they experience it for themselves. Acting inhuman erodes your Humanity and the penalties start getting worse (in a clever bit, in VtR 2e Clan Banes don't actually hit you until you drop below Humanity 7 the first time as an example) and worse.

        If you get wrapped up in the power fantasy of being a vampires, you destroy your Humanity in the process, and regaining it is going to be a long slog if you even see a point to it.
        I wasn't a big fan of that either. I just don't like the forcing of that premise in the rules that much. Still it was a better execution of it than V5. At least it gave you more wiggle room, with a less punishing system.


        If nothing worked, then let's think!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by blailton View Post

          So you should not use the powers?
          Yes. VtR2e's humanity is not a morality-based system, but how monstrous you are. If you act like a vampire (including using supernatural powers), you will become less humane. As I said, I'm not a big fan of it. It makes every strong/old vampires effectively and obviously inhuman monsters, which excludes a lot of characters from the vampire pop-culture. It still does this whole thing better than V5, IMO, but honestly, I prefer the old VtM system, when humanity is morality, you have different morality systems and it isn't connected to using the supernatural stuff, or petting humans. I just don't like when a game tries to tell me this bluntly how I should play it and what themes I should use. If I sometimes want a power fantasy with cool vampire antiheroes, let me have it, dammit.


          If nothing worked, then let's think!

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          • #20
            Originally posted by PMárk View Post

            Yes. VtR2e's humanity is not a morality-based system, but how monstrous you are. If you act like a vampire (including using supernatural powers), you will become less humane. As I said, I'm not a big fan of it. It makes every strong/old vampires effectively and obviously inhuman monsters, which excludes a lot of characters from the vampire pop-culture. It still does this whole thing better than V5, IMO, but honestly, I prefer the old VtM system, when humanity is morality, you have different morality systems and it isn't connected to using the supernatural stuff, or petting humans. I just don't like when a game tries to tell me this bluntly how I should play it and what themes I should use. If I sometimes want a power fantasy with cool vampire antiheroes, let me have it, dammit.
            ^This.

            Old VtM made Humanity about the degree to which the vampire resisted anti-social behavior. Not whether that behavior is inherently "human" (a nebulous concept, especially when you get Mages involved) or whether they engaged actively with human "touchstones". If they wanted to be a monster (rather than "merely" a supernatural being), they either accept low Humanity or chose a more amenable Path/Road.

            You were allowed to have your power fantasy, while also having the fantasy of being a Good Person, if you wanted.

            You could even decide to become a Child of Osiris, and become a high Humanity hermit. It might be boring if you aren't roped into Kindred business, but it was an option. You didn't need to hang out with humans to keep humane, because you had your meditation and regimented unlifestyle.


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            • #21
              Yep, as others have said, the pools given in the NPC stat blocks are full dice pools rather than attributes and skills. "Firearms 5" doesn't mean five dots in the Firearms skill but that they roll five dice to use a gun—Dexterity 3 and Firearms 2, perhaps, or Dexterity 2 and Firearms 3, or some other combination.

              It's meant to make it easier for STs to run mooks without full sheets. Important NPCs (such as all named characters) have full sheets instead. And Cults introduces an even simpler system for running hordes in combat, where they have a static difficulty for PCs to roll against—good for when things have gone horribly wrong and you're fighting a huge swarm of zombies or shovelheads, and the ST doesn't want to roll for every single one.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by blailton View Post
                So you should not use the powers?
                No, you should use your powers judiciously. Risking a Humanity check in VtR 2e isn't that bad (in terms of an individual roll being fairly easy to pass, and regaining Humanity isn't that expensive on the XP even if you don't), but a neonate drunk on the power being a vampire allows and spams their powers is going to bleed out of Humanity pretty fast.

                Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                I wasn't a big fan of that either. I just don't like the forcing of that premise in the rules that much.
                It's a different game. I know the premise isn't something that appeals to everyone, but it's part of how VtR defines itself so it's not some oddity that the rules enforce what the game says it's trying to do; which is more my point of not having the power fantasy aspect of being a vampire let the horror aspect of being a vampire get lost in the action.

                Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                If you act like a vampire (including using supernatural powers), you will become less humane.
                To be clear though, this is something that exists on a scale. Tanking a knife wound is a Humanity 7 check, tanking a car accident is a Humanity 6 check, and so on. And it's a roll, which means it will usually take multiple instances before you lose Humanity, giving you time to get it back (or even increase it higher) if you're not going crazy with your powers.

                VtR 2e's Humanity mechanics also include being able to take on extra Banes to no long have to risk losing Humanity over certain things (though you have to lose Humanity because of that reason before you can take this option) with a small penalty to the rest of your checks.

                I mean, yes, it will eventually bite you in the ass... but that's the point...vamprism is a curse and these are (supposedly) primarily horror games.

                It makes every strong/old vampires effectively and obviously inhuman monsters, which excludes a lot of characters from the vampire pop-culture.
                Not really. Outside of very specific things (like Cruac blood magic) there is nothing that stops you from having a 5,000 year old VtR vampire, with BP 8+, more dots than you'd want to count, and still have Humanity 10. It's just meant to be nearly impossible to pull off and that character would be viewed as some sort of legendary bodhisattva of vampires rather than something the PCs should expect to match.

                I just don't like when a game tries to tell me this bluntly how I should play it and what themes I should use. If I sometimes want a power fantasy with cool vampire antiheroes, let me have it, dammit.
                Unless a game is trying to be a universal style game... it has to tell you how you're supposed to play it and what themes you're supposed to focus on... that's the job of a custom system. That's what every Vampire brand game has done so far. The question is how well they execute it, and for some people how broad those statements are in appeal.

                VtR 2e isn't built for superheroes with fangs... which is VtR's developers prerogative. If it wants to focus on, "becoming a blood god means destroying your human self," that's what it should do.

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                • #23
                  This thread is like a microcosm of the hate this forum has for v5.


                  The Final Frontier

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                    It's a different game. I know the premise isn't something that appeals to everyone, but it's part of how VtR defines itself so it's not some oddity that the rules enforce what the game says it's trying to do; which is more my point of not having the power fantasy aspect of being a vampire let the horror aspect of being a vampire get lost in the action.

                    I mean, yes, it will eventually bite you in the ass... but that's the point...vamprism is a curse and these are (supposedly) primarily horror games.

                    Unless a game is trying to be a universal style game... it has to tell you how you're supposed to play it and what themes you're supposed to focus on... that's the job of a custom system. That's what every Vampire brand game has done so far. The question is how well they execute it, and for some people how broad those statements are in appeal.

                    VtR 2e isn't built for superheroes with fangs... which is VtR's developers prerogative. If it wants to focus on, "becoming a blood god means destroying your human self," that's what it should do.

                    These are effectively the reasons why I went back to VtM (well, besides liking the setting better). Yes, it's still not an universal system and it has its themes, still, it allowed for a much broader spectrum of styles and I preferred that. It didn't punish you for using your supernatural powers, besides needing blood. It didn't punish you for not being fixated on specific humans obsessively. It punished you for moral choices and all the other things just pushed you to make those choices and becoming less of a human by that. I preferred that kind of horror and also the fact that yes, the ohsotragicbroodingpersonalhorror could take a backseat once in a while and i could focus on other themes and styles without the system resisting me at every step. Then, V5. :/

                    It's like if a new edition of Shadowrun forcing you to play only full black trenchcoat mode and punishing for even a little bit of pink mohawk. I prefer systems and games with more flexibility, instead of games which are "laser-focused" on a very tight set of ideas. I know you take that aspect of pre-V5 VtM as a negative and I'm sure others do, but for me, it's a feature, which allows me a bigger freedom in what I want to do. Each to their own.
                    Last edited by PMárk; 02-17-2020, 04:31 PM.


                    If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      VtR 2e isn't built for superheroes with fangs... which is VtR's developers prerogative. If it wants to focus on, "becoming a blood god means destroying your human self," that's what it should do.
                      VTR power levels are greater than masquerade and acumulating huge dice pools is fucking easy (One of my few criticisms is how easy is to abuse the system if you know the right combinations along the lack of paths) , there is also a Tier System.

                      VTR Neonate=Masquerade Ancillae
                      VTR Ancillae=Low level masquerade elder
                      VTR Elder=Methusaleah and Bloodlines Founders
                      VTR Meth=GEHENA SUPLEMENT
                      Last edited by Leandro16; 02-17-2020, 04:44 PM.


                      https://www.deviantart.com/cicerondixit/gallery

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post

                        VTR power levels are greater than masquerade and acumulating huge dice pools is fucking easy (One of my few criticisms is how easy is to abuse the system if you know the right combinations along the lack of paths) , there is also a Tier System.

                        VTR Neonate=Masquerade Ancillae
                        VTR Ancillae=Low level masquerade elder
                        VTR Elder=Methusaleah and Bloodlines Founders
                        VTR Meth=GEHENA SUPLEMENT
                        How do a broken character with chargen? Any build recommendation?

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                        • #27
                          1. Choose Disciplines
                          2. Rejoice in how the first two dots of any of them actually do anything

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
                            1. Choose Disciplines
                            2. Rejoice in how the first two dots of any of them actually do anything
                            I was asking from Requiem... in V5 the disciplines are useless until the 5 dot.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by blailton View Post

                              I was asking from Requiem... in V5 the disciplines are useless until the 5 dot.
                              Of course everything is worthless in your eyes because you hate v5 with a passion. My question is. Why not go back to the Requiem boards and let us have actual fruitful conversations about the game we love. I just find the amazing that your hate for V5 that you ignore to read the text on 370, just the page before all that you started to diss:

                              "Minor characters such as mortals and animals have generic dice pools for physical, social, and mental actions are concerned. The exception to this rule comes where their Secondary Attributes and profession or role-specific challenges come into play, such as a cop’s aim or an inquisitor’s perception of danger being higher
                              than their typical physical pool. These exceptions are stated where relevant and should be rolled as a complete dice pool, but in all cases, the Storyteller should adjust dice pools to reflect an exceptional or weaker version of the character specified."


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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by blailton View Post

                                I was asking from Requiem... in V5 the disciplines are useless until the 5 dot.
                                Lets look at the 4 first V5 vs V:R disciplines:

                                Animalism.
                                1. Sense the Beast - No such thing in VR
                                1. Bond Famulus - No such thing in VR
                                2. Feral whispers - Level 1 in requiem though in V5 Feral whispers combine VR level 1, 2 tand 3 together, so you get 3 powers in V5 instead of 1 in VR
                                3. Animal succulence - Does not exist in VR
                                3. Quell the Beast - Does not exist in VR
                                4. Subsume the Beast - The same as in VR
                                5. Animal Dominance - Does not exist in VR
                                5. Drawuing out the Beast - Same as in VR

                                So in V5 by chosing Level 2 Feral Whispers, Level 4 Subsume the Beast and Level 5, Drawing out the Beast, you get all 5 powers from Animalism in VR. And still have 2 other choices to get additional powers at level 1 and level 3.
                                This implies that VR Animalism is worse and weaker than V5.

                                Auspex
                                1. Heightened Senses - The same with the exception that in V5, you can also see in darkness.
                                1. Sense the unseen - does not exist in VR
                                2. Premontions - does not exist in VR
                                3 Aura Perception (Level 2 in Vr)
                                3. Shard Senses - does not exist in VR
                                4. Spirits Touch - (Level 3 in VR)
                                5. Clairvoyance - does not exist in VR
                                5. Telepathy (Level 4 in VR)

                                IN V5 you have the option of three new powers while some of the powers have been raised 1 step than what they were in VR. However f you have Sense the UNseen, you can always try to spot obfuscated persons regardless of their level in Obfuscate. It is no longer an autofail if the obfuscated person has more dots than you.

                                Celerity
                                Massivly changed no longer a win-all from VR when it comes to fighting mortals and vampires without Celerity. In V5 it is more versatile and less powerful.

                                Dominate
                                1. Cloud Mind - Does not exist in VR
                                1. Compel - same as in VR
                                2. Mesmerize - Same as in VR
                                3. The Forgetful Mind - same as in VR
                                4. Submerged Directive - Might be the same as Conditioning
                                5. Mass Manipulation - Does not exist in VR
                                5. Terminal Decree - Does not exist in VR

                                In VR you get the same powers level 1-3, level 4 might be a bit different and level 5 is now an amalgam of Dominate and Auspex in V5, and V5 has an additional 3 new powers to choose from.


                                In total. Apart from Celerity, Fortitude and Potence. I would say that most powers in VR has the same powers in V5, as well as V5 seems a little better in my eyes.Especially Animalism which makes VR look lie a faded shadow of V5s powers.

                                But if you think that v5 powers are useless, God you must really hate the powers i VR





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