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  • #31
    Originally posted by Little_Miss_ Serneholt View Post

    Of course everything is worthless in your eyes because you hate v5 with a passion. My question is. Why not go back to the Requiem boards and let us have actual fruitful conversations about the game we love. I just find the amazing that your hate for V5 that you ignore to read the text on 370, just the page before all that you started to diss:

    "Minor characters such as mortals and animals have generic dice pools for physical, social, and mental actions are concerned. The exception to this rule comes where their Secondary Attributes and profession or role-specific challenges come into play, such as a cop’s aim or an inquisitor’s perception of danger being higher
    than their typical physical pool. These exceptions are stated where relevant and should be rolled as a complete dice pool, but in all cases, the Storyteller should adjust dice pools to reflect an exceptional or weaker version of the character specified."

    What are you talking about? I already know the exceptional dice rule o_O My concern was about why a ancillae, 200 years old vampire, have the same dicepool than a cop!
    After that I asked a build in VtR, at chargen, because Leandro said in VtR its easy broke the rules and make a op character!
    You need to calm down.
    And no, its not useless in my eyes. Its useless, period. Take a look in V5 celerity first and second dot. But if your character gonna destroy swat teams with balancw and +2 dice in dex actions outside combat go for it! Call me a hater and block me in this forum.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by blailton View Post

      What are you talking about? I already know the exceptional dice rule o_O My concern was about why a ancillae, 200 years old vampire, have the same dicepool than a cop!
      Just to be clear. You do know that a vampire can have 9dice in its firearms pool (4+4+spec) without any experience used?

      Originally posted by blailton View Post
      After that I asked a build in VtR, at chargen, because Leandro said in VtR its easy broke the rules and make a op character!
      You need to calm down.
      And no, its not useless in my eyes. Its useless, period. Take a look in V5 celerity first and second dot. But if your character gonna destroy swat teams with balancw and +2 dice in dex actions outside combat go for it! Call me a hater and block me in this forum.
      Celerity being much less powerful in 1st and 2nd dot does not equal disciplines in V5 being useless until the 5th dot.
      Last edited by Heliodromus; 02-18-2020, 10:37 AM.

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      • #33
        In any case - zero of the NPCs in the OP have a dicepool of 9 in firearms.

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        • #34
          I am not a fan of VtR. Its a game I not even like.


          Originally posted by Little_Miss_ Serneholt View Post

          Lets look at the 4 first V5 vs V:R disciplines:

          Animalism.
          1. Sense the Beast - No such thing in VR
          I don't know if this is a merit in vtr but its a merit in past editions.

          It's a Merit.

          A MERIT.

          You dont need even a Discipline to do just it. Recognize someone as a vampire? Seriously? Wow. Isn't it something too weak to be a discipline? They turned a merit in a first dot discipline in v5.

          1. Bond Famulus - No such thing in VR
          Have a pet it's not a power.
          2. Feral whispers - Level 1 in requiem though in V5 Feral whispers combine VR level 1, 2 tand 3 together, so you get 3 powers in V5 instead of 1 in VR
          Still a level 1 power in requiem, so...

          This implies that VR Animalism is worse and weaker than V5.
          Lmao.

          Auspex
          1. Heightened Senses - The same with the exception that in V5, you can also see in darkness.
          Err... In VtR every vampire can see in the Darkness. and no, Auspex 1 dont let you see in the darkness. This is Protean 1.

          3 Aura Perception (Level 2 in Vr)
          4. Spirits Touch - (Level 3 in VR)
          5. Telepathy (Level 4 in VR)
          Are you trying to defend or criticize the v5 power level? Because if you're trying to defend you're not doing a convincing job.

          Celerity
          Massivly changed no longer a win-all from VR when it comes to fighting mortals and vampires without Celerity. In V5 it is more versatile and less powerful.
          Versatile? hnm.... Instead of gain Armor and initiative, what it give to you is the supernatural power to Balance, don't take -2 dice for using taking cover from bullets, +2 dice in outside of combat actions and some ultra-hiper-mega niche powers, like run upon water. How many times you pj need to run upon water per chronicle? Rarely at best.
          And yes, its less powerfull.

          Dominate
          level 5 is now an amalgam of Dominate and Auspex in V5
          Buy this amalgam is too expensive, out of what a pj can aspire to achieve some day. what a PJ can expect to ever buy with the 1xp per session. So, posession, a power that was available to pjs at chargen, its to npc only in v5.

          But if you think that v5 powers are useless, God you must really hate the powers i VR
          I don't like Requiem and I don't mind you criticizing it.

          What I say is that the powers of v5 are much weaker than the powers of previous editions. When I speak of weaker, I do not mean weaker in combat, but weaker in a way that is useless. For example, if you take the Predator Type Farmer, you only get the first Animalism dot which does not help you hunt animals at all.

          Old powers have become more expensive for no reason, the most striking being Obfuscate 3 which has now become a level 5 power, meaning that only Blood Gods have access. Quick question: Why can only blood gods have the power to transform their appearance into someone else's appearance? Is it really such an op power that it had to be removed from the players' reach? I never saw a campaign being destroyed by that power.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Heliodromus View Post

            Just to be clear. You do know that a vampire can have 9dice in its firearms pool (4+4+spec) without any experience used?
            The text of the book say the st can make stronger or weaker versions of that sheet, so 5 firearms is a regular cop, while a min-max one would have 9 dicepool too.

            Celerity being much less powerful in 1st and 2nd dot does not equal disciplines in V5 being useless until the 5th dot.
            Ok. What discipline you think it's more usefull thant previous editions? Considering 1 disciplie at level 2, and another one in 1 at chargen, hunger dice and etc.

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            • #36
              Using the rulebook templates you would need to use the template for Gifted Mortal to get 9 dice. This would no longer be a random cop in my opinion.
              I do actually agree that some of the templates are very strong, but a random detective is still not going to obliterate an ancillae.

              Even if all of the disciplines should be weaker than before (which I do not believe they are) that does not necessarily mean they are useless until lvl 5.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Little_Miss_ Serneholt View Post

                Lets look at the 4 first V5 vs V:R disciplines:
                Ha.

                V5 powers are a lot weaker than VTM's powers. In VTM, basically everything common disciplines wise but presence and celerity were free to use, no blood requirement, no willpower necessary.

                Animalism
                VTM: So, feral whispers is like, a fucking king-discipline
                V5: I need a discipline to have an animal friend? I can't remember this well, but is that neccessary? In VTM I could just create a ghoul and/or use feral whispers. Shit I could Feral whisper all the dogs in the neighbourhood to be my defenders and use animalism 2 to call my army. Now, I need a whole power dedicated to one friend?

                Celerity:
                VTM: Kinda overpowered unless you use DAV20 or maybe the edition where generational expenditure applied and it had to be built up (Did I read that right? I haven't played with those rules)
                V5- A selection of speed based gimicks

                Dominate
                VTM: a successive line of mortal domination. You could provide subversive, long term dominates, implant false thoughts with mesmerise, completely dominate an individual into
                V5- Bullshit. Dominate might as well cause spirals to swirl in your eye. Everything's weaker, Only having a quick -memory blank- as a level 1 power is a strength, and that's kinda indicative of how often masquerade breaches happen with the hunger system rather than a straight improvement.

                Fortitude
                VTM - Probably the least cost effective discipline out there, but you got to become invincible.
                V5- Assorted gimicks

                Obfuscate
                VtM- Easy to muster, capable of doing any face by level 3.
                V5- Moving unseen is later iirc, being able to do a face is at least two different powers further down the line. Oh, and you need to rouse to use this power, so Nosferatu really gotta hide away (Or not, they seem requiemized to be less ugly)



                I don't think I need to go into the blood sorcery changes.

                Vampires are weaker. Much weaker. BloodBuffing's gone too iirc? (it's been a while since I read that travesty they call a corebook) Humans are of course, relatively, going to be a lot stronger.


                V5 is not VTM

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by blailton View Post
                  I don't like Requiem and I don't mind you criticizing it.

                  What I say is that the powers of v5 are much weaker than the powers of previous editions. When I speak of weaker, I do not mean weaker in combat, but weaker in a way that is useless. For example, if you take the Predator Type Farmer, you only get the first Animalism dot which does not help you hunt animals at all.

                  Old powers have become more expensive for no reason, the most striking being Obfuscate 3 which has now become a level 5 power, meaning that only Blood Gods have access. Quick question: Why can only blood gods have the power to transform their appearance into someone else's appearance? Is it really such an op power that it had to be removed from the players' reach? I never saw a campaign being destroyed by that power.
                  To clarify, I think they're talking about VR (Vampire: the Masquerade Revised Edition), not VtR (Vampire: the Requiem). Requiem 2e disciplines for the most part are far and away more powerful than in any edition of Masquerade, but it's a different game with a different design philosophy.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    Ha.

                    V5 powers are a lot weaker than VTM's powers. In VTM, basically everything common disciplines wise but presence and celerity were free to use, no blood requirement, no willpower necessary.

                    Animalism
                    VTM: So, feral whispers is like, a fucking king-discipline
                    V5: I need a discipline to have an animal friend? I can't remember this well, but is that neccessary? In VTM I could just create a ghoul and/or use feral whispers. Shit I could Feral whisper all the dogs in the neighbourhood to be my defenders and use animalism 2 to call my army. Now, I need a whole power dedicated to one friend?

                    Celerity:
                    VTM: Kinda overpowered unless you use DAV20 or maybe the edition where generational expenditure applied and it had to be built up (Did I read that right? I haven't played with those rules)
                    V5- A selection of speed based gimicks

                    Dominate
                    VTM: a successive line of mortal domination. You could provide subversive, long term dominates, implant false thoughts with mesmerise, completely dominate an individual into
                    V5- Bullshit. Dominate might as well cause spirals to swirl in your eye. Everything's weaker, Only having a quick -memory blank- as a level 1 power is a strength, and that's kinda indicative of how often masquerade breaches happen with the hunger system rather than a straight improvement.

                    Fortitude
                    VTM - Probably the least cost effective discipline out there, but you got to become invincible.
                    V5- Assorted gimicks

                    Obfuscate
                    VtM- Easy to muster, capable of doing any face by level 3.
                    V5- Moving unseen is later iirc, being able to do a face is at least two different powers further down the line. Oh, and you need to rouse to use this power, so Nosferatu really gotta hide away (Or not, they seem requiemized to be less ugly)

                    I don't think I need to go into the blood sorcery changes.

                    Vampires are weaker. Much weaker. BloodBuffing's gone too iirc? (it's been a while since I read that travesty they call a corebook) Humans are of course, relatively, going to be a lot stronger.
                    You don't need Animalism in V5 to have an animal ghoul; Bond Famulus just gets you a variety of special gimmicks and cost reductions on other effects (and didn't really need to be a power, honestly, but they needed a second effect for level one so they stuck that one in). You can totally have a pet, blood-bound animal, or animal ghoul without it. I normally take Sense the Beast at level one instead because it's much better.

                    V20 Celerity was broken as fuck. I'm glad it doesn't give multiple actions any more, honestly. Similarly, V20 Fortitude was generally useful, but boring; I like that it now has some more variety. Ventrue having more mental/social Fortitude powers makes perfect sense to me. (Also, have you seen "Shatter" from Cults? It's a great Fortitude power that really should have been in the core.)

                    Hasn't "moving while obfuscated" been level two since Revised at least? I know it's level two in MET20 and V20DA, I don't have my earlier corebooks with me to check. Anyway, that's still level two now.

                    Bloodbuffing isn't gone. It's called "blood surging" or something like that now, and can be used on any attribute, not just physical ones: you can buff your Intelligence or Charisma too if you want. (Which also makes some sense to me; bloodbuffing Strength is like a minor, universally-available version of Potence, representing that all vampires can make themselves stronger than mortals, so "blood surging" Charisma is like a minor, universally-available version of Presence, representing that all vampires can make themselves more charismatic than mortals.)

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by blailton View Post
                      The text of the book say the st can make stronger or weaker versions of that sheet, so 5 firearms is a regular cop, while a min-max one would have 9 dicepool too.
                      …seriously? "The book says the Storyteller can make NPCs stronger if they want, so even though the mortal stats in the book are weaker than chargen vamps (as they should be), the ST can still make super-strong mortals that obliterate vampires, which means mortals are stronger than vampires in general"?

                      As Heliodromus said, that would be a "gifted mortal" rather than a normal one: someone like Grünfeld Bach in Bloodlines who poses a major threat to a vampire in a one-on-one fight. Not your average cop off the street. And even then, a mortal with a Firearms pool of 9 versus a vampire with a Firearms pool of 9 is going to be dead pretty quickly. They're taking aggravated damage while the vampire is taking superficial damage and then dividing it by two, and the vampire can blood-buff and heal themself mid-fight, even without any extra damage-soaking from Fortitude or bullet-dodging from Celerity.

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                      • #41
                        V5 raised the level of Feral whispers no? It's a level 2 power. The level 1's really, really suck. The level 3 power that makes you more acceptable to animals is also something that, in vtm, was just bolted on to having the discipline at all. So the first three levels are much weaker.




                        Physical disciplines worked better when they were simple powers that got better linearly. It just makes life easier not having to memorize (and chose from) so many powers; Brujah were elegantly simple. It also makes more thematic sense; Getting faster,tougher or stronger gradually makes more sense than getting highly specific different boosts tangentitally related to physical attributes (I can near teleport from here to there using speed but I can't attack with this? BS!) , but more than that; These abilities were stronger.

                        Ok, yeah, Celerity was too strong. DAV20 is fine, i believe there was an edition of VTM where you'd have to charge up celerity as it'd use your blood expenditure (So like, some 11th gen with celerity 5 would need to spend a blood for five turns before going gonzo) But if Celerity was just more dex dice or maybe something to improve on splitting actions, I'd be all for it.

                        Potence just giving a constant strength bonus equal to it's level was a potent power. It was intuitive, it covered all aspects of strength (I suppose they could've fluffed it up a bit)
                        All the physical V5 gimicks just don't feel powerful. They aren't actually powerful.


                        Every Discipline in V5 is weaker, and not in a good 'This is now balanced' way.


                        V5 is not VTM

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                          V5 raised the level of Feral whispers no? It's a level 2 power. The level 1's really, really suck. The level 3 power that makes you more acceptable to animals is also something that, in vtm, was just bolted on to having the discipline at all. So the first three levels are much weaker.

                          Physical disciplines worked better when they were simple powers that got better linearly. It just makes life easier not having to memorize (and chose from) so many powers; Brujah were elegantly simple. It also makes more thematic sense; Getting faster,tougher or stronger gradually makes more sense than getting highly specific different boosts tangentitally related to physical attributes (I can near teleport from here to there using speed but I can't attack with this? BS!) , but more than that; These abilities were stronger.

                          Ok, yeah, Celerity was too strong. DAV20 is fine, i believe there was an edition of VTM where you'd have to charge up celerity as it'd use your blood expenditure (So like, some 11th gen with celerity 5 would need to spend a blood for five turns before going gonzo) But if Celerity was just more dex dice or maybe something to improve on splitting actions, I'd be all for it.

                          Potence just giving a constant strength bonus equal to it's level was a potent power. It was intuitive, it covered all aspects of strength (I suppose they could've fluffed it up a bit)
                          All the physical V5 gimicks just don't feel powerful. They aren't actually powerful.

                          Every Discipline in V5 is weaker, and not in a good 'This is now balanced' way.
                          I wouldn't say every one is weaker (Presence is basically the same for example, Fortitude ends up being better when you factor in that soak is gone, things like that), but yeah, the overall power level has been lowered. (I should probably clarify, though, that Animalism 3 power isn't "be more acceptable to animals", it's "feed on animals even if you're older"—older vampires now need to feed on humans instead of animals, and eventually on supernaturals instead of humans, as a mechanization of the old Methuselah's Thirst flavor.)

                          I'm fine with Celerity letting you move fast but not attack twice—if you were literally just moving faster, at V20-Celerity speeds, you'd catch fire from air friction and would crash into walls because you couldn't turn fast enough. One of the earlier editions (was it 2e?) had a sidebar about this pointing out that it can't be literally just "move faster", which is why you can't sprint into someone at Celerity speed to do ridiculous amounts of damage, and from that the whole complicated mess of Temporis was born.

                          I am curious though, what do you think of the physical disciplines in Requiem 2e? They kept the "single scaling effect" model rather than giving them individual powers at each level, but made Celerity less broken and Fortitude less boring. Similarly, what do you think of the physical disciplines in MET20, which keep the V20 thematics and multiple actions for Celerity and such, but do give them discrete effects at each level? (I'm curious because I've never been fully satisfied with any edition's physical disciplines and am constantly searching for a good compromise.)

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                          • #43
                            So I plan on writing more once I'm home and not trying to tap this out on mobile but a note for people who might not like V5 physical disciplines. And keep in mind I am trying to come from a place of some neutrality. I am a wod vet but I haven't played WoD for almost 20 years and the extent I do will likely be relegated to video games.

                            So, talk of the overall power level of WoD5 aside the physical disciplines stand out as one of the traditional problem children of VtM. Through most editions Potence was a problematic force multiplier for.........Celerity! Which was an overpowered discipline in most versions. Helped along by offence being much more potent than defence traditionally in WoD games. Fortitude spent it's time being an extremely underpowered discipline, especially in light of how insanely common aggravated damage was. I think if viewed honestly it should come as little surprised that physical disciplines would get a major overhaul in a new edition, regardless of if someone did or didn't like V5.

                            Also fwiw WoD has a history of overstatted generic npc write ups.
                            Last edited by TyrannicalRabbit; 02-18-2020, 07:29 PM.


                            “As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” noun: empathy the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                              V5 raised the level of Feral whispers no? It's a level 2 power. The level 1's really, really suck. The level 3 power that makes you more acceptable to animals is also something that, in vtm, was just bolted on to having the discipline at all. So the first three levels are much weaker.




                              Physical disciplines worked better when they were simple powers that got better linearly. It just makes life easier not having to memorize (and chose from) so many powers; Brujah were elegantly simple. It also makes more thematic sense; Getting faster,tougher or stronger gradually makes more sense than getting highly specific different boosts tangentitally related to physical attributes (I can near teleport from here to there using speed but I can't attack with this? BS!) , but more than that; These abilities were stronger.

                              Ok, yeah, Celerity was too strong. DAV20 is fine, i believe there was an edition of VTM where you'd have to charge up celerity as it'd use your blood expenditure (So like, some 11th gen with celerity 5 would need to spend a blood for five turns before going gonzo) But if Celerity was just more dex dice or maybe something to improve on splitting actions, I'd be all for it.

                              Potence just giving a constant strength bonus equal to it's level was a potent power. It was intuitive, it covered all aspects of strength (I suppose they could've fluffed it up a bit)
                              All the physical V5 gimicks just don't feel powerful. They aren't actually powerful.


                              Every Discipline in V5 is weaker, and not in a good 'This is now balanced' way.

                              I think Fortitude 2-Toughness gives you near enough the same level of power as earlier editions, then you have additional powers so I think it is more powerful than before.
                              Same for Potence 2-Prowess.
                              Animalism has the Lvl 1 Sense the Beast giving you the ability to sense the level of hostility in others, I do not agree that it is a power that really, really suck.

                              Though I agree that the general power level of disciplines are lower, in part because the (potential) cost of activating some of them.

                              I do not agree that simple linear powers are necessarily better, it is just different and I prefer V5 Fortitude and Potence.


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                              • #45
                                Simple physical disciplines are intuitive. They add to a stat and have a bonus feature, leveling things up only increases the few benefits offered. Potence is great for fighting, for carrying things, for climbing, for jumping, for swiming, for showing off. We understand that it "increases strength" and we can easily use that for a variety of situations. Just being stronger carries a lot of opportunities, but it need only be explained with "adds to strength stat"

                                But then there's v5. v5 moves away from this beautiful, excellent simplicity. There's some powers that sound strong, but they're really not.
                                Like with a celerity power I can dash from A to B ultra fast, but I can't combine this with an attack? I can't just point my sword forward and charge? Oh, and I have to pick and chose if because there's a power for initiative, a power for balance, a power for...
                                This is really, really bad for new players or people who like things simple or storytellers who need to keep track of things and help people through stuff. There's much more things to learn and it's not intuitive. Why is this power specifically offering only a dash option? How artificial, how weak! Vampires are held back because the game designers thought giving players short bursts of supersonic speed was a good idea but letting them use it offensively would break the game.

                                I think there's a good middle ground. For example, VTM's dominate has different powers each level, but there's a clear linear progression in the powers that's intuitive. Mesmorize builds off command, forgetful mind builds off mesmorize, turning folk into drones seems like a logical next step, and possession seems like the very next thing to learn after you've eliminated someone's will using dom 4. If the physicals had a few cool extras that, linearly, make sense, that'd be great. Let's say Fortitude 2 protects your clothes (and lets you move through a thorn bush easily), fortitude 3 protects the items on you, fortitude 4 makes it look like your cover you're hiding behind is sturdy, fortitude 5 protects your car. Fortitude auto-protects from electricity. These are minor things, but they'd be great for the masquerade in that, y'know, it looks like your suit's armoured rather than your flesh is durable. Those sorta changes would be great, because you don't really need to remember disciplines like they were Werewolf Gifts that have an order to them.

                                But what V5 does? It's just messy and, well, the disciplines are bad. They're less good.
                                VTM obviously wasn't perfect. But it was easily a whole lot better.



                                Oh, while I'm here, another thing that makes disciplines weaker is that they've lost their structure.
                                For the most part, in VTM, disciplines very roughly went like this.

                                1- Something broadly applicable that you'll use a lot.
                                2- A really useful power that, whilst you can't use as much as 1, you'll use frequently to great effect.
                                3- Middle of the road power. You'll use it less than 1 or 2, even though it's probably more powerful.
                                4- Very specialised, Very effective. There are reasons to hold back on this one.
                                5- A tactical nuke.

                                Now, there are disciplines that followed this closely, and there are disciplines that mostly follow it with a few outlying powers. A fraction follow this much less. But it worked really, really well.

                                In v5, it's thrown out the window. Level 1 is filled with garbage fillers and you can't really use them as much, level 2 is where things start. The high levels are underwhelming.
                                This makes vampires weaker.
                                Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 02-19-2020, 05:36 PM.


                                V5 is not VTM

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