Should Kuei-Jin be in V5?

[Spencer from The Hills]

This topic came up in the Ravnos thread; I considered posting there but I think it's a separate issue, even if they may be absent for a similar reason. As I mentioned somewhere before, not much has been said so far about South, East and Southeast Asia*, apart from Japan, Hecata and at least a statement about the Ministry. To me, that looks like a vast, half-the-biggest-continent spanning "TBD".

I like a lot about the Kuei-Jin. If they are replaced with Cainites, I still want the dharmas preserved, not necessarily as Paths, and explanation of how the Camarilla arrived in Japan (and where ever else).

*I'm also curious about the Golden Courts further afield in Oceania, but that's stretching the pan-Asian splat further again (depending on how one writes the Golden Courts) and how many vampires could there be on the Pacific islands anyway?

[CTPhipps]

I think they should be replaced with new, previously unknown, Kindred Clans.

Ones that COULD be an offshoot of existing clans but are possibly not.

Jiangshi could be Cappadocians for example.

[Taggie]

Should Vampires other than Kindred be in the game? Yes, if you can find a myth arc for them, having something totally other, inspired by different myths, competing to fill the same or similar predatory niche could be really interesting, could the Kuei-Jin be reworked into that? Unknown,

[omenseer]

With the proper reworking I would like for them to be in V5.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

At the very least, retcon out Tou Mu as an evil spirit. We don't need to be copying off of D&D's paper. Especially not when even D&D seems to have realized that it was a mistake before KotE even came along (unless there was some place in 2e other than Legends and Lore where she would have shown up).

[CTPhipps]

Should Vampires other than Kindred be in the game? Yes, if you can find a myth arc for them, having something totally other, inspired by different myths, competing to fill the same or similar predatory niche could be really interesting, could the Kuei-Jin be reworked into that? Unknown,

I think the biggest issue (which I explained in the Ravnos thread) is the fact the Kuei-Jin prevent Asian gamers from being able to enjoy V:TM in their home nations. If you want to play sexy vampires, snooty nobleman, and raged-out Anarchs--which is pretty much why anyone would play the V:TM game to begin with--the Kuei-Jin take up half of the planet and say they kill all of them and prevent them from establishing themselves.

And the Kuei-Jin don't fill that role either.

In a way much worse than the Assamites, Ravnos, or Setites are in racial issues because at least you can play a Camarilla court in India.

[Taggie]

I think the biggest issue (which I explained in the Ravnos thread) is the fact the Kuei-Jin prevent Asian gamers from being able to enjoy V:TM in their home nations. If you want to play sexy vampires, snooty nobleman, and raged-out Anarchs--which is pretty much why anyone would play the V:TM game to begin with--the Kuei-Jin take up half of the planet and say they kill all of them and prevent them from establishing themselves.

And the Kuei-Jin don't fill that role either.

In a way much worse than the Assamites, Ravnos, or Setites are in racial issues because at least you can play a Camarilla court in India.

and we had other people in that thread saying that they wanted the other mythical creatures, just done better.

[CTPhipps]

and we had other people in that thread saying that they wanted the other mythical creatures, just done better.

Maybe but I think there's a fundamental disconnect because the Kuei Jin should have been their own splat.

While they drink blood and are undead, they're closer to Wraith or Demon: The Fallen than Kindred.

So when you deal with adapting the myth, there's no real reason for the Kuei Jin to ever interact with the Cainites anymore than the Werewolves or Fae.

[Mister_Dunpeal]

I think you could have 'Kuei-Jin' (the name) in V5. Whether you could have things as depicted in KotE in V5 is another matter entirely. Given the discussions I've seen of that (and Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom, for that matter) the answer is 'hell no' and you're probably better off treating them all as variations of the same creature (even if they don't have a different origin point - eg they descend from some other being than 'Caine').

This would be a reversion to an earlier approach to such things (which may have had its own problems - I'm not qualified to judge that) but its not impossible, I think.

[Taggie]

Maybe but I think there's a fundamental disconnect because the Kuei Jin should have been their own splat.

While they drink blood and are undead, they're closer to Wraith or Demon: The Fallen than Kindred.

So when you deal with adapting the myth, there's no real reason for the Kuei Jin to ever interact with the Cainites anymore than the Werewolves or Fae.

Except that they would be in direct competition for pray, that's the conflict right there, you can add in geopolitical rivalries etc, but it's two undead predators scrapping over the herd at its core. Making the territories less monolithic would be a very good idea mind, something the new promise could have been, but really wasn't, how you would fit in mixing those hunting ranges with established lore, well, not impossible, but tricky.

[CTPhipps]

Except that they would be in direct competition for pray, that's the conflict right there, you can add in geopolitical rivalries etc, but it's two undead predators scrapping over the herd at its core. Making the territories less monolithic would be a very good idea mind, something the new promise could have been, but really wasn't, how you would fit in mixing those hunting ranges with established lore, well, not impossible, but tricky.

Ehhh, the Kuei Jin books are very clear about how little the Hunger matters to them. The demphasis of it from flesh and blood to Ki I felt robbed them of an interesting angle.

The game is more about fighting demons I think. Which means I would think they'd regularly encounter Garou.

[Taggie]

Ehhh, the Kuei Jin books are very clear about how little the Hunger matters to them. The demphasis of it from flesh and blood to Ki I felt robbed them of an interesting angle.

The game is more about fighting demons I think. Which means I would think they'd regularly encounter Garou.

Possibly. Given how overwhelming the hunger is in v5, crowding out humanity/path and politics, as it constantly gatecrashes the game.. Having vampires not being hammered into the ground by it would be a relief

[CTPhipps]

Possibly. Given how overwhelming the hunger is in v5, crowding out humanity/path and politics, as it constantly gatecrashes the game.. Having vampires not being hammered into the ground by it would be a relief

You could also have vampires who drink Kool-Aid but I don't think that's the better game.

[Thoth]

Another way to look at KotE is "do you want to play vampire, but without the usual baggage"?

V:tM is a stand alone system while KotE is a kitchen sink cross over system.
V:tM is about being isolated from humanity while KotE has a strong family connection theme and other Asian community values

V:tM is about hiding the supernatural while KotE is about managing the supernatural balance
V:tM is about Caine screwing up and you being collateral damage, while KotE is about you screwing up your life and paying for it.

V:tM is about being an emo teenager for eternity while KotE is about growing up/maturing for power gain.

I would say that what needs to happen with the Kuei-jin is their mechanics need a serious overhaul to remove excess bloat and crunch, then fold the heretical dharmas into the original ones, make the dharmas much less antagonistic to everyone, and finally retcon the california invasion. KotE was a good alternative flavor of vampirism, but it was used in a poor fashion in relation to the metastory of the game line.

[Draconis]

In a way much worse than the Assamites, Ravnos, or Setites are in racial issues because at least you can play a Camarilla court in India.

I haven't experienced this personally (as I am extremely white), but more than one of my friends has told me about Masquerade LARPs insisting they play specific clans because of their skin colors. So I agree with you wholeheartedly on that.

Personally, if I were in charge? I would specify that Asia has "normal" Kindred just like Europe and Africa and Australia and the Americas do. The Wan Kuei (which seems to be their new name?) exist alongside them, not instead of them. So you can incorporate regional mythology if you want, or you can play a classic Camarilla-versus-Anarchs-versus-Sabbat game set in Tokyo or wherever.