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Should Kuei-Jin be in V5?

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  • Yes, MyWifeIsScary, we get it, you hate V5.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
      Yes, MyWifeIsScary, we get it, you hate V5.
      But don't you see? If he doesn't get in on literally every single V5 thread to talk about how it is the worst thing ever published in the history of mankind when its not called for, he won't be able to fill his gatekeeping toxicity quota!

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      • Originally posted by GilbyTheFat View Post
        But don't you see? If he doesn't get in on literally every single V5 thread to talk about how it is the worst thing ever published in the history of mankind when its not called for, he won't be able to fill his gatekeeping toxicity quota!
        No no, he must repeat the incantation 10,000 times and then V5 will be retconned away like the True Hand!


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • I don't thrust the new developers to make this worth so just don't mention anything.

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          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            Maybe but I think there's a fundamental disconnect because the Kuei Jin should have been their own splat.

            While they drink blood and are undead, they're closer to Wraith or Demon: The Fallen than Kindred.

            So when you deal with adapting the myth, there's no real reason for the Kuei Jin to ever interact with the Cainites anymore than the Werewolves or Fae.

            In my games i go with something of a blend of KotE and older stuff like Gaki, "Hengeyokai Cats" and Bushi and ssome homebrew to connect the dots. Handwaved the Thousand Hells as the product of the fertile torpid imagination of the Ravnos antediluvian (and possibly some of its childer) at work. Most mortals who become Wan-Kuei entered those places through a connection resulting from the sin of being the thousand generations distant descendants of the same. The "chimeric embrace" results in a clanless vampire with a natural affinity for a bastardized form of Chimerstry known as Rift/Hellweaving.

            The Dharmas i kept as local sects/blood cults and their relation with the Camarilla or Sabbat will vary from domain to domain, but just the fact the Clanless, their philosophies and factions are the majority and noddist lore is seen as foreign kindred myth (at best) can make interactions and diplomacy colorful and sometimes confusing to navigate. There has also been a growing trickle of Caitiff anarchs who dare the risks of continental travel to ascertain the truth of rumours of the "eastern courts of the clanless" through the last century or two.

            Originally posted by Taggie View Post

            They are however the walking, talking confirmation of biblical myth, and having other myths be true as well would really help break that.
            Only if one considers the Book of Nod to be true and not some work by late roman/medieval christian kindred monks - and about as reliable as the living monks copies of some older texts in the period.

            It's perfectly possible to have clans and Antediluvians - and everything else the kindred believe about their origins be complete lies.
            System tops at 9-10, who's to say "3rd generation" is not the actual top, with nothing else above?

            Originally posted by blailton View Post
            I don't thrust the new developers to make this worth so just don't mention anything.
            You know that "don't mention anything" is a ludricous request to make in a topic about this subject, no?

            No offense but "I don't trust the new developers to make this worth it, so just won't read anything." would have made considerable more sense.
            Last edited by Baaldam; 03-04-2020, 12:52 PM.

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            • Originally posted by Baaldam View Post






              Only if one considers the Book of Nod to be true and not some work by late roman/medieval christian kindred monks - and about as reliable as the living monks copies of some older texts in the period.

              It's perfectly possible to have clans and Antediluvians - and everything else the kindred believe about their origins be complete lies.
              System tops at 9-10, who's to say "3rd generation" is not the actual top, with nothing else above?


              .
              The game since 1st Edition has acted like it is true, apart from some later, failed attempts at muddying the waters, so, sure you could make a vampire game where it isn't centered on biblical characters as the source of vampirism, but it's not VtM if you do. The main Kindred are Cainites, retcon that and it's not VtM anymore, I have no problems with that, my problem is them being the only game in town, (I have no problems with DtF either, as enough other demons/devils/tentacle monsters were knocking around to make it clear that the demons claims are suspect at best, I want that level of 'but then what are these guys?' doubt in vampire, and that requires separate creatures supported by separate rules.

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              • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                The game since 1st Edition has acted like it is true, apart from some later, failed attempts at muddying the waters, so, sure you could make a vampire game where it isn't centered on biblical characters as the source of vampirism, but it's not VtM if you do.
                Actually, they acted like the general belief was in the myth presented in the Book of Nod, what is quite a different animal from saying it is a fact or cosmic truth. It's only in late 2nd edition, around '98 when someone made KotE with the misguided conceit that you needed a whole different system to make spontaneously risen vampires and other stuff, that the pseudo-biblical lore starts to define setting elements as fact, something done with a heavier hand in Revised era in fact.

                And about the "a vampire game where it isn't centered on biblical characters as the source of vampirism, but it's not VtM if you do", newcast - that's how i always STed the game, since back in '92 when i first met Masquerade. If Caine was for real or just a myth? No diff. Antediluvians are antediluvians and they made the clans, First City is First City - did vampires originate in Enoch or Tenochtitlan? Could Set also be Quetzacoatl? Who knows? Maybe an (original) Antediluvian, go ask one. Supposing it won't lie. Makes no actual diff in the game per se, except for opportunities to blow the mind of unexpecting players.

                Less so nowadays with more talk of the african vampires or the drowned legacies in South & Central Americas, but i still have my fun with the occasional "all undead lie, can you trust your sources?" setting hack/retcon.

                Originally posted by Taggie View Post
                The main Kindred are Cainites, retcon that and it's not VtM anymore, I have no problems with that, my problem is them being the only game in town, (I have no problems with DtF either, as enough other demons/devils/tentacle monsters were knocking around to make it clear that the demons claims are suspect at best, I want that level of 'but then what are these guys?' doubt in vampire, and that requires separate creatures supported by separate rules.
                No, vampires are kindred. They embrace, they have clans, though in some places they might be different and not embrace, or sometimes they do, but do not have clans - distant lands and foreign kibdred are weird, what can one say.

                Requiem would do much better in that venue of fluff, but that's a whole different can of worms and not really the subject anyway.

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                • Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

                  Actually, they acted like the general belief was in the myth presented in the Book of Nod, what is quite a different animal from saying it is a fact or cosmic truth. It's only in late 2nd edition, around '98 when someone made KotE with the misguided conceit that you needed a whole different system to make spontaneously risen vampires and other stuff, that the pseudo-biblical lore starts to define setting elements as fact, something done with a heavier hand in Revised era in fact.

                  And about the "a vampire game where it isn't centered on biblical characters as the source of vampirism, but it's not VtM if you do", newcast - that's how i always STed the game, since back in '92 when i first met Masquerade. If Caine was for real or just a myth? No diff. Antediluvians are antediluvians and they made the clans, First City is First City - did vampires originate in Enoch or Tenochtitlan? Could Set also be Quetzacoatl? Who knows? Maybe an (original) Antediluvian, go ask one. Supposing it won't lie. Makes no actual diff in the game per se, except for opportunities to blow the mind of unexpecting players.

                  Less so nowadays with more talk of the african vampires or the drowned legacies in South & Central Americas, but i still have my fun with the occasional "all undead lie, can you trust your sources?" setting hack/retcon.



                  No, vampires are kindred. They embrace, they have clans, though in some places they might be different and not embrace, or sometimes they do, but do not have clans - distant lands and foreign kibdred are weird, what can one say.

                  Requiem would do much better in that venue of fluff, but that's a whole different can of worms and not really the subject anyway.
                  I fundamentally disagree, if something uses the same rules, it is the same thing. The rules of the game are the physics of the game, if a creature uses the same rules as a Cainite, it is a Cainite. Having different rules at a base level for different types of undead is what makes them actually different

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                  • Originally posted by Taggie View Post
                    I fundamentally disagree, if something uses the same rules, it is the same thing. The rules of the game are the physics of the game, if a creature uses the same rules as a Cainite, it is a Cainite. Having different rules at a base level for different types of undead is what makes them actually different
                    This just seems like a strange take when the corebook (not just in V5, I remember this from earlier editions too) represents werewolves, ghosts, etc using the rules for vampires. It doesn't mean the Garou are metaphysically the same as vampires, it just means it's easier on the ST to represent their powers in familiar ways.

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                    • Originally posted by Draconis View Post

                      This just seems like a strange take when the corebook (not just in V5, I remember this from earlier editions too) represents werewolves, ghosts, etc using the rules for vampires. It doesn't mean the Garou are metaphysically the same as vampires, it just means it's easier on the ST to represent their powers in familiar ways.

                      because it's clear that those aren't the actual rules for those critters, just an approximation, with the proper rules appearing in other books, where as if Kieu Jin appeared with Cainite rules as their full, intended rules, then they are Cainites, despite in universe delusions to the contrary.

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                      • Originally posted by Taggie View Post


                        because it's clear that those aren't the actual rules for those critters, just an approximation, with the proper rules appearing in other books, where as if Kieu Jin appeared with Cainite rules as their full, intended rules, then they are Cainites, despite in universe delusions to the contrary.
                        Isn't that what happened? "Here are some creatures that are similar to Cainites but they have various unique differences so they're not the same, and here are some basic systems and suggestions for approximating them using the existing VtM rules." And then we got rules for them in full later?

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                        • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

                          Isn't that what happened? "Here are some creatures that are similar to Cainites but they have various unique differences so they're not the same, and here are some basic systems and suggestions for approximating them using the existing VtM rules." And then we got rules for them in full later?


                          Yes, but it's not what people are asking for here, they are asking for Kieu Jin to be Cainites, which totally invalidates them as anything but deluded creatures of judeo christian myth, cursed by Yhwh, and declares yhwh to be the one true in universe god.

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                          • Originally posted by Taggie View Post



                            Yes, but it's not what people are asking for here, they are asking for Kieu Jin to be Cainites, which totally invalidates them as anything but deluded creatures of judeo christian myth, cursed by Yhwh, and declares yhwh to be the one true in universe god.
                            Not attacking your statement, but for the record of anyone of influence reading this, I do Not want the Wan Kuei to just be cainites/kindred.

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                            • A lot of good ink has been spilled on the subject of the Kuei-Jin, both for and against them as well as for alternate versions of them, so I won't go on for too long about all that rn, there's plenty in this forum covering it.

                              To the current topic of the thread at this stage, I'll also say that I think that Kuei-Jin are probably best left as something vampiric but which is definitively not Cainite. Maybe people still want to call them kindred, to imply some kinship, but that's for them to decide.

                              I will say that in my personal opinion, the Kuei-Jin are less of an issue for the practicality of the setting when they are allowed to co-exist alongside VtM vampires as a distinct entity, although also vampiric.

                              In my own usage of the World of Darkness, I usually have cainite kindred existing everywhere that human civilization does, including central and east asia. They co-exist alongside the Kuei-Jin and all the other critters that dwell within the night. Not necessarily peacefully, but no worse then with the lupines, magus, or wild ones.

                              I also think that CTPhipps (iirc) earlier statements about the current issues of Asian players wanting to be able to play classic vampire and not have to deal with Kuei-Jin forcing/pressuring them to play something else to play in familiar cultures or to have characters that look like they do is a very real concern and one that deserves consideration.

                              Ultimately though, while discussion is always interesting, I think this is an issue that every ST, player, and table needs to decide for itself and the needs of their own chronicle and that, as always, as long as everyone is safe and having a good time, there's no wrong way to play the game.
                              Last edited by Gryffon15; 03-08-2020, 11:44 PM. Reason: CTPhipps not CTPhelps

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