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V5 - Lupine power level

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  • V5 - Lupine power level

    So I am reading Chicago by Night, and I just don't get it. There are some really weak kindred in the city that "hunt" werewolves. Considering the fact that the only details we currently have on lupines are their stats on the V5 core book, I would say that no kindred in the Chicago By Night book stand a chance of even touching a lupine.

    One of this kindred, a Gangrel is said to have killed a werewolf with a pack of wolves she enslaved with animalism. A pack of wolves killed a werewolf (lol?). I find it so ridiculous considering their power level in previous editions, and their apparent power level in the core book (Animalism 5 alone should have stopped the wolf pack).

    The last time I ren W:tA I found that even elder vampires have a really hard time against a single young werewolf. Considering they can travel through the umbra, gather information through spirits, wield magical weapons and the list goes on. Not to mention their physical stats in Crinos form.

    I am running a chronicle in Chicago, and I find it really hard to sell to my players that those "werewolf hunting" kindred can really do what they claim they do.

    Am I missing something here?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Godforsaken View Post

    Am I missing something here?
    Celerity no longer provides extra actions.

    Most people have heard that Rage will no longer do the same thing. If that's the case, Lupines no longer are remotely overpowered and anyone can take them down. Particularly if the, "No stats over 5" thing holds.

    Honestly, this is probably the best decision they could have made as werewolves have been need of a rewrite for multiple editions.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

      Celerity no longer provides extra actions.

      Most people have heard that Rage will no longer do the same thing. If that's the case, Lupines no longer are remotely overpowered and anyone can take them down. Particularly if the, "No stats over 5" thing holds.

      Honestly, this is probably the best decision they could have made as werewolves have been need of a rewrite for multiple editions.

      If you ask me the Celerity nerf hurts the vampire much more then it hurts the werewolf. I am also not sure about the no stat over 5. Surely a werewolf is much stronger than the most powerful human, and in Crinos form even stronger than a bear (which have 7 physical dice pool).

      In the book, they gave them around 3 on all physical stats but mentioned that they add +3 to those stats in war form. Which means above 5.

      I agree that werewolves were over the top in previous additions, though currently in the rule book they are still quite insanely powerful, I mean, they have almost the same amount of dots in disciplines as a gen 4 elder vampire. And their combat dice pool will most likely be higher.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Godforsaken View Post
        If you ask me the Celerity nerf hurts the vampire much more then it hurts the werewolf. I am also not sure about the no stat over 5. Surely a werewolf is much stronger than the most powerful human, and in Crinos form even stronger than a bear (which have 7 physical dice pool).

        In the book, they gave them around 3 on all physical stats but mentioned that they add +3 to those stats in war form. Which means above 5.

        I agree that werewolves were over the top in previous additions, though currently in the rule book they are still quite insanely powerful, I mean, they have almost the same amount of dots in disciplines as a gen 4 elder vampire. And their combat dice pool will most likely be higher.
        But yes, I fully expect in the new system that vampires with guns will be able to stand against werewolves and possibly hand-to-hand. The big change will be that werewolves are pack characters while vampires are mostly solitary.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Godforsaken View Post
          So I am reading Chicago by Night, and I just don't get it. There are some really weak kindred in the city that "hunt" werewolves. Considering the fact that the only details we currently have on lupines are their stats on the V5 core book, I would say that no kindred in the Chicago By Night book stand a chance of even touching a lupine.

          One of this kindred, a Gangrel is said to have killed a werewolf with a pack of wolves she enslaved with animalism. A pack of wolves killed a werewolf (lol?). I find it so ridiculous considering their power level in previous editions, and their apparent power level in the core book (Animalism 5 alone should have stopped the wolf pack).

          The last time I ren W:tA I found that even elder vampires have a really hard time against a single young werewolf. Considering they can travel through the umbra, gather information through spirits, wield magical weapons and the list goes on. Not to mention their physical stats in Crinos form.

          I am running a chronicle in Chicago, and I find it really hard to sell to my players that those "werewolf hunting" kindred can really do what they claim they do.

          Am I missing something here?
          I think what you are missing, from my potentially ignorant position, is that when vampires goes to kill something they don't duel at a pre-determined location like chivalrous knights according to set rules.

          Its ambushes, silver weapons, targeting third parties, drones, booby traps and anything you can come up with to create a situation where the vampires can bring maximum advantage when taking down the werewolf with minimum risk to themselves. Hence as long as they have decent intelligence scores I can absolutely think they'll manage to get some plan together that is "hunting werewolves" and involves dead werewolves and no, or few, Final Deaths for the vampires.

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          • #6
            Bad writing.

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            • #7
              Werewolves being weak to silver has always been a hilariously exploitable weakness. If it weren't for 'Jam technology' the'yd all be rugs.


              But the Warriors of Gaia were supposed to be powerful
              That was the point. They were basically living a version of warhammer 40k

              I suppose since V5 wants to get rid of all the combat, there's no point to werewolf.
              -Getting diplomatic with the Wyrm is a sin-




              For ease of reference: "VTM" means every edition that isn't V5, because V5... it's a very different product, and I don't want to write "Pre-V5" because that's lame and I'm lazy.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Gurkhal View Post

                I think what you are missing, from my potentially ignorant position, is that when vampires goes to kill something they don't duel at a pre-determined location like chivalrous knights according to set rules.

                Its ambushes, silver weapons, targeting third parties, drones, booby traps and anything you can come up with to create a situation where the vampires can bring maximum advantage when taking down the werewolf with minimum risk to themselves. Hence as long as they have decent intelligence scores I can absolutely think they'll manage to get some plan together that is "hunting werewolves" and involves dead werewolves and no, or few, Final Deaths for the vampires.
                True, but werewolves are not some stupid animals, they are cunning and versed with the modern world as well. They can, literally do the same to a vampire (Thinking about Glass Walkers or Shadow Lords here).

                The thing is that I don't think that a vampire can't kill a werewolf, they surely can. I just think that in the book they sell it like it's easy and the vampires who do it are so confident in themselves like they are hunting rabbits or something. While it is quite clear that from the SPC's stats and background story that they don't really stand a chance and one day a pack will just appear from the Umbra in front of them and tear them to pieces.

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                • #9
                  Considering how nerfed Vampires as whole have become in V5, I sincerely doubt they would be able to take on Garou at all. Though I suppose we'll have to see the extent of nerf we might get in W5 though, lol.

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                  • #10
                    They dont take the lupines head on. They set traps for them.
                    Last edited by Nicolas Milioni; 03-04-2020, 09:03 AM.

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                    • #11
                      A correction of the power creep from one game line to the next would be the most interesting change 5th Edition has to potentially offer.

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                      • #12
                        its not really powercreep if werewolves started incredible.

                        but werewolf is pretty combat heavy. makimg them suck wouldn't bode well.
                        given how divisive v5 is, W5 looks to be a line ender


                        For ease of reference: "VTM" means every edition that isn't V5, because V5... it's a very different product, and I don't want to write "Pre-V5" because that's lame and I'm lazy.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hopefully this means that werewolves will be nerfed hard because previous editions were completely ridiculous. It would be nice if werewolves actually felt like, well, werewolves, and not insane combinations of D&D Barbarians and Druids.

                          The whole Rage thing was clearly inspired by Barbarians and other classes with multiple actions, but here's the thing: multiple actions don't mean the same thing in the hitpoint system that they do in the health-level system.

                          In the hitpoint system, those hitpoints represent a bunch of little movements you do defensely. Hitpoint games assume that there is a lot of, for want of a better word, dancing that happens that is left undescribed. When that Barbarian hits you with his multiple actions, he really isn't taking more actions than you, nor hitting you cleanly. Rather, he is forcing you to strain so hard to dodge him that you are rapidly exhausting yourself. Indeed, he can take those multiple actions not because he is faster than you, but because he has the stamina to attack and dance at the same time without exhausting himself. He's forcing you to take strain damage to dodge him, rather than chopping you up, in other words. It's only when you are completely exhausted that he can finally chop you up.

                          That's why multiple actions characters feel a lot more balanced in hitpoint games.

                          White wolf, though, isn't a hitpoint game. It's a health-level game. Multiple-actions are devastating in a health-level game, because those multiple-actions represent you being so much slower that you just stand there like a character in a Quicksilver or Flash scene while he chops you to pieces. You are standing there like a statue, while "Sweet Dreams Are Made of These" is playing, a fly's wings are slowly beating, drops of blood are very slowly flying through the air, and the werewolf is leisurely clawing you to pieces with a relaxed expression on his face.

                          Originally White Wolf just transplanted multiple actions from D&D to their games without the slightest thought to how much more devastatingly more powerful that is in a health-level game than in a hitpoint game.

                          And then on top of that they gave them the power to teleport to another friggin dimension full of powerful potential allies, and the ability to teleport around defenses like Rick Sanchez. How is that a werewolf? That's not a werewolf. That's Harry Keogh or "Jumper" with wildly more physical ability to deal with whatever you teleport on top of.

                          So yeah, can you make the werewolves feel like werewolves and not Barbarian-Druids with Rick Sanchez inter-dimensional teleporter guns?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            its not really powercreep if werewolves started incredible.

                            but werewolf is pretty combat heavy. makimg them suck wouldn't bode well.
                            given how divisive v5 is, W5 looks to be a line ender
                            Yeah. A line ender, just like V5 which is one of the top selling RPGs of recent.

                            But back on topic, even humans were able to take down werewolves with the right preparation and planning before. It's not far fetched that a vampire that learns their weaknesses and abuses that could in theory take down multiple of them.

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                            • #15
                              Yeah, I would love to see W5 tone down the power level of werewolves a bit. They are so ridiculously powerful compared to other creatures, especially vampires, that crossover is really difficult. Especially with the religious fanaticism that make werewolves attack on sight. Werewolves did start off powerful, but they had some power creep too. I seem to recall that in the original WW:A that reducing a werewolf past incapacitated damage either incapacitated it or killed it, but in later editions they can keep fighting with a Rage roll. They also used to need to stare into a mirror to enter the Umbra, more recently they can do it as will. So werewolves are not only Quicksilver moving around attacking while everybody else is still but they are Nightcrawler, teleporting where ever they want as is convenient.

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