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V5: Ashirra and Future Sects?

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  • V5: Ashirra and Future Sects?

    As someone relatively new to the game and setting, I was wondering what you all thought the likelihood of an Ashirra sourcebook in the future would be. Also, are there any other sects or groups that might be brought into greater prominence (or maybe even restructured into being political sects) that you think are likely to be included in the future?

  • #2
    I really hope so. I like the Ashirra. Veil of Night for Dark Ages has stuff about them.


    Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

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    • #3
      I quite like the Drowned and the Laibon, too. I think they make the world a lot more interesting and packed with hidden history. I have a cynical suspicion that the franchise's current owners will use them as just an excuse to place limits on the amount of geography they have to cover in order to work with the clans and characters they care about. Beyond this point, there be dragons.

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      • #4
        I feel the Ashirra is best as Camarilla+. Even if it's older, it would've been something that would've been absorbed into the larger body.

        The Laibon...
        Oh boy.
        The dual nature thing's really, really cool.
        But a pan-african vampire society that's not the Camarilla... Africa doesn't work that way.


        I feel the attempt to make the Camarilla a White thing, rather than a global conspiracy, and giving other cultures their just do, is... dishonest. That V5 wants to double down on a problem element. When worldbuilding something that parrallels the real world, you should work out the sociology, logistics, people involved... You don't give serious considerations to whites because you wanna criticise them and then give Africans a Utopian society because africans have gone through a lot and deserve to be propped up.


        For ease of reference: "VTM" means every edition that isn't V5, because V5... it's a very different product, and I don't want to write "Pre-V5" because that's lame and I'm lazy.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Penelope View Post
          I really hope so. I like the Ashirra. Veil of Night for Dark Ages has stuff about them.
          I second this. I've enjoyed the Ashirra since I first picked up Revised in the back-when times.

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          • #6
            I haven't read Kindred of the Ebony Kingdoms yet. Is it worth buying?


            Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

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            • #7
              I hope a Gehenna War book with Ashirra vs Sabbat. The Cults of Blood Cults of Blood Gods of Blood are nearly sects by their own right.

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              • #8
                Sorry if this is a dumb question, but would it be feasible to introduce/re-flavor Kuei-Jin, Laibon, Drowned Legacies, etc. as regional Kindred conspiracies the same way that the Camarilla deals with the European world?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                  I feel the Ashirra is best as Camarilla+. Even if it's older, it would've been something that would've been absorbed into the larger body.

                  The Laibon...
                  Oh boy.
                  The dual nature thing's really, really cool.
                  But a pan-african vampire society that's not the Camarilla... Africa doesn't work that way.


                  I feel the attempt to make the Camarilla a White thing, rather than a global conspiracy, and giving other cultures their just do, is... dishonest. That V5 wants to double down on a problem element. When worldbuilding something that parrallels the real world, you should work out the sociology, logistics, people involved... You don't give serious considerations to whites because you wanna criticise them and then give Africans a Utopian society because africans have gone through a lot and deserve to be propped up.

                  I don't understand this at all. What you makes you think Camarilla is even a "White" thing in the first place? You say it as if other Vampires pulled from other races aren't in the Sect at all. Also I'm Black and I've read Ebony Kingdom, I found no inconsistencies on how the Laibon operate. Why do you make it seem the Laibon can't have a pan-african organization? They aren't even a pan-african conglomerate to begin with anyway, they work as parcelled "Kingdoms" ruled by different Guruhl Methuselah equivalents. Your argument doesn't make sense, because the Laibon Legacies predate the formation of the Camarilla, so why the hell would they be apart of it lol. Laibon society isn't utopian either if you actually bothered to read the Ebony Kingdoms book.

                  If I remember daintly the only European Legacy among the Laibon are a bloodline from the Malkavians Toreador(?) (EDIT: Looked it up, they are called the Ishtarri) who are now Berber I believe, other than that Western Kindred didn't really have contact with the Laibon until the Imperial Age. Though I think I remember some Giovanni had some contact before with the slave outposts their merchant kine had on the coasts. Beside that Camarilla has really zero influence supernaturally in sub-sahara Africa. You should really read the classics and try to understand oWoD before recommending things change the mainly disliked "V5" way.
                  Last edited by Shakanaka; 03-05-2020, 07:57 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    I feel the Ashirra is best as Camarilla+. Even if it's older, it would've been something that would've been absorbed into the larger body.

                    The Laibon...
                    Oh boy.
                    The dual nature thing's really, really cool.
                    But a pan-african vampire society that's not the Camarilla... Africa doesn't work that way.


                    I feel the attempt to make the Camarilla a White thing, rather than a global conspiracy, and giving other cultures their just do, is... dishonest. That V5 wants to double down on a problem element. When worldbuilding something that parrallels the real world, you should work out the sociology, logistics, people involved... You don't give serious considerations to whites because you wanna criticise them and then give Africans a Utopian society because africans have gone through a lot and deserve to be propped up.
                    I think it's worth questioning how the Camarilla is a global conspiracy or how it's a white thing as the case may be, using the same techniques as you say. What I assume is that majority of elders in Europe who survived the pretty much all either joined the Camarilla, the Sabbat or went/remained autarkis, with some exceptional enclaves in clans Tzimisce and Giovanni. This was possibly because they were a small community (compared to human nations) under common existential threats. Following that, both sects expanded into new continents that didn't have high populations of native vampire, i.e. the Americas, Australia and presumably New Zealand, basically because vampires originated in western Asia and don't migrate easily. Whereas they didn't have much success settling much of Africa or eastern Asia, which had plenty of their own vampires.

                    As I recall, the books (or at least one of them) said that Ashirra sort of merged with the Camarilla some time after the latter was founded. Is it plausible that most native communities of vampires in Asia and Africa were either assimilated or replaced? Or was it global from the start, like the Mage Council of Nine Mystic Traditions*.

                    *I'm tempted to refer to the Pentacle Orders of Mage: The Awakening 2E, given how Eurocentric the Traditions are, but even the Orders coalesced in Eurasia and expanded to other mages from there, albeit faster than non-mages established global communications.

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                    • #11
                      Well to answer your question- Kindred don't exist in Asia and the Laibon were never replaced or assimilated at all by the Camarilla, despite their mortal counterparts being colonized in the 19th through 20th century by the European kine. The only time another group of Vampires were assimilated or replaced, was when European Kindred in the form of the Sabbat fought against the Mesoamerican Vampires when they followed their herds to the Americas.
                      Last edited by Shakanaka; 03-05-2020, 11:53 PM.

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                      • #12
                        For my own worldbuilding I would probably make it easy in the Modern Nights to just say that the Ashirra and Laibon, or at least their establishments, joined the Camarillas as they both see a value in the Traditions of "Caine", do not value a conflict with Western Kindred for its own sake, like the idea of cooperation in a more connected world and don't like the Sabbat (the example from Mesoamerica was probably a selling point in that direction) and after joining the Camarilla - unlife continued as before with no change whatsoever except that they have a Camarilla logo on their cards.

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                        • #13
                          Yeah that sounds like a really bad idea. Vampires are really territorial, stubborn, and very long lived. I sincerely doubt the Laibon would ever put much credence in Camarilla philosophy at all. The Camarilla isn't compatible with how the Laibon are with their ruling system. Even in the 21st century well after pre-Imperial uplift to modernity/westernization by the former colonial nations, most Laibon elders have domains FAR in the rural and unmodern parts of Africa still. Not only that I supremely doubt the Guruhl would tolerate their positions to be usurped by an organization mostly ruled by the Venture. They wouldn't have that. Ashirra I don't really know and I don't know if they were even incorporated into the Camarilla.

                          When reading the Ebony Kingdom book, they even tell you that while their mortal kine counterparts failed to stave off European colonial wars, the Laibon roughly beat away and kept a stalemate with the Camarilla that followed their Imperial kine for enough years until the Decolonial era. That doesn't surprise me since pre-Industrial sub-sahara Africa was really deadly and short, where rival tribes would raid you to sell you off into slavery, no real medicine beside folk ones, deadly predators around, diseases, etc.

                          On top of that through the WoD lens, Laibon have to contend with all the other various Fera Breeds in Africa, that to remind were never killed off in the War of Rage- so they'd probably had to intrigue and fight against deadly killing machines other than wolves. Vampires on their own aren't harmed by bullets that much (a striking reason why the mortal African kine lost so badly in Colonialism), so the Cam at the get go don't have many options. Not only that the Laibon would probably have more sheer fighting experience, because again, its pre-Industrial tribal Africa.

                          Making everything Camarilla around the globe just 'cuz doesn't make sense. Their should be more Sects around the globe. This how we get bad ideas where the Sabbat got "removed" in V5. Instead of removing Sects, make more.
                          Last edited by Shakanaka; 03-06-2020, 12:10 AM.

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                          • #14
                            EDITED: My mistake. Forget about it.
                            Last edited by Gurkhal; 03-06-2020, 12:25 AM.

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                            • #15
                              For my v5 game I'll probably have Cammie and am.narchs in North America. Laibon in Africa. Ashirra in the middle East and North Africa. Drowned in South America. I'll turn the kue jin courts into regular kindred in Asia.

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