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V5 - Canon stance on power level changes?

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  • V5 - Canon stance on power level changes?

    Kind of a weird question, but I'm curious. In the transition to V5 a number of Disciplines got rebalanced and generally depowered, but none moreso than Thaumaturgy/Blood Sorcery. Gone are the days of lightning bolts and fireballs. And similarly the Tremere as a whole are depowered, literally, as the collapse of the pyramid took their ability to Blood Bond other Kindred with it. My question is: Is the weakened state of Thaumaturgy an in-canon development in which Tremere fifty years ago could shoot fire but they've lost the power, or is it a complete retcon and V5 assumes that they've only ever had access to the rituals and powers that they can use right now?

  • #2
    Don't know the answer to your question but i am glad they rebalanced it. Shooting lightning and fireballs from your hands never made sense to me. Seemed more like powers that a mutant from the x-men would use then a vampire. I like my vampires more grounded in reality.

    Also why would blood sorcery give you acces to those powers? A bit odd if you ask me.
    Last edited by blackshade; 03-06-2020, 07:28 PM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by IllithidActivity View Post
      Kind of a weird question, but I'm curious. In the transition to V5 a number of Disciplines got rebalanced and generally depowered, but none moreso than Thaumaturgy/Blood Sorcery. Gone are the days of lightning bolts and fireballs. And similarly the Tremere as a whole are depowered, literally, as the collapse of the pyramid took their ability to Blood Bond other Kindred with it. My question is: Is the weakened state of Thaumaturgy an in-canon development in which Tremere fifty years ago could shoot fire but they've lost the power, or is it a complete retcon and V5 assumes that they've only ever had access to the rituals and powers that they can use right now?
      While this is a valid and important critique...it's not true anymore.

      Cults of the Blood Gods shows you can throw fire.

      Throwing lightning is in LA by Night.

      The answer is, "The canonical answer is....the supplements haven't done all the rituals yet."


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #4
        Original Dracula had powerful weather-control abilities. "Love at First Bite" Dracula had powerful telekinetic abilities. Vampires being able to cause doors to open and close at a distance, and making all the candles in the room spontaneously alight has been a common trope in many different vampire stories. The idea that vampires know magic is pretty common in vampire fiction, but they are generally portrayed more like witches with fangs rather than D&D Wizards.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by IllithidActivity View Post
          Kind of a weird question, but I'm curious. In the transition to V5 a number of Disciplines got rebalanced and generally depowered, but none moreso than Thaumaturgy/Blood Sorcery. Gone are the days of lightning bolts and fireballs. And similarly the Tremere as a whole are depowered, literally, as the collapse of the pyramid took their ability to Blood Bond other Kindred with it. My question is: Is the weakened state of Thaumaturgy an in-canon development in which Tremere fifty years ago could shoot fire but they've lost the power, or is it a complete retcon and V5 assumes that they've only ever had access to the rituals and powers that they can use right now?
          The real answer is 'the core book wasn't designed to have Literally Everything Ever' and things will come back in time, tweaked to fit the balance of the new system, such as the rituals for fire and such in Cults.

          There's no IC explanation for most of it, though a lot of it is implict 'same or similar effect, different name'.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by blackshade View Post
            . I like my vampires more grounded in reality.
            .
            I know what you're wanting to mean, but this isn't how you say it.


            For realsies.
            Humans can learn and practice magic in WoD. Why wouldn't a vampire be able to do it? You gotta keep up that internal realism.


            What I think you wanted to say, is that Blood-themed magic fits vampires, whilst levinbolt doesn't. I can completely understand that sentiment, even if I think it's misplaced.

            Static magic (Magic that doesn't need a mage avatar awakening) is available to everyone; Normal people, werecats, your mother, my wife and other monsters,
            It would very much break princibles if humans could use all the paths including Lure of Flames but Vampires just couldn't use some stuff because it doesn't seem vampiry-enough. I think there are cases where being a vampire rather than a human would affect the magic, but that's for deeper reasons than '1000watt tremere are an afront to dracula'


            For ease of reference: "VTM" means every edition that isn't V5, because V5... it's a very different product, and I don't want to write "Pre-V5" because that's lame and I'm lazy.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

              While this is a valid and important critique...it's not true anymore.

              Cults of the Blood Gods shows you can throw fire.

              Throwing lightning is in LA by Night.

              The answer is, "The canonical answer is....the supplements haven't done all the rituals yet."
              It’s all that really needs to be said on the matter isn’t it?

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              • #8
                I find it odd that people would think a "1000 watt Tremere" is an affront to Dracula, when the actual novel Dracula has him summon the most severe storm on record, and severe storms tend to have lightning.

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                • #9
                  Maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but outside a few ultra-rare paths (Mercury and all that infernal crap) Thaumaturgy isn't really that strong, and a few paths are a total waste of time. When I read the title of this thread, I thought we'd be discussing something like Dominate, which got significantly nerfed, celerity, which changed to an entirely different discipline, obfuscate, which got significantly nerfed, auspex, which... you can see where I'm going with this, right?

                  I don't think the SI could do as well as they are doing now were the old Dominate still around. The changes to dominate create a big logistical gulf in how vampires handle things, and the changes to other disciplines offer the vampires more problems than solutions. The least affected clan are the Gangrel, and they're the least integral to it all. .

                  As much as i don't like the new path of blood, it's not really that much weaker objectively speaking. While they definetly should've mentioned other paths in the corebook...There's plenty of room to make thaumaturgy great again (ignoring that all the practitioners have been royally screwed up)


                  For ease of reference: "VTM" means every edition that isn't V5, because V5... it's a very different product, and I don't want to write "Pre-V5" because that's lame and I'm lazy.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
                    Original Dracula had powerful weather-control abilities. "Love at First Bite" Dracula had powerful telekinetic abilities. Vampires being able to cause doors to open and close at a distance, and making all the candles in the room spontaneously alight has been a common trope in many different vampire stories. The idea that vampires know magic is pretty common in vampire fiction, but they are generally portrayed more like witches with fangs rather than D&D Wizards.
                    Witches vs D&D wizards is kind of a distinction without a difference, since the latter has encompassed the former as a concept from time to time.

                    Per your other post, the ability to pinpoint-target lightning can be different from just calling up a tremendous storm. It's a matter of scale; creating a massive storm might produce a lot of lightning strikes, but it's a big picture power that doesn't lend itself to attacking individuals. Because you're attacking a vast swath of land and water, instead.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                      Maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but outside a few ultra-rare paths (Mercury and all that infernal crap) Thaumaturgy isn't really that strong, and a few paths are a total waste of time. When I read the title of this thread, I thought we'd be discussing something like Dominate, which got significantly nerfed, celerity, which changed to an entirely different discipline, obfuscate, which got significantly nerfed, auspex, which... you can see where I'm going with this, right?

                      I don't think the SI could do as well as they are doing now were the old Dominate still around. The changes to dominate create a big logistical gulf in how vampires handle things, and the changes to other disciplines offer the vampires more problems than solutions. The least affected clan are the Gangrel, and they're the least integral to it all. .

                      As much as i don't like the new path of blood, it's not really that much weaker objectively speaking. While they definetly should've mentioned other paths in the corebook...There's plenty of room to make thaumaturgy great again (ignoring that all the practitioners have been royally screwed up)
                      Dominate is now much more powerful since Mortals can't resist it unless they're aware theyr'e being dominated. No roll necessary.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                        Dominate is now much more powerful since Mortals can't resist it unless they're aware theyr'e being dominated. No roll necessary.
                        That's an incredibly shallow reading. Most mortals had less than 5 willpower, auto success isn't that much better than difficulty 3 rolls from a dice pool that's very often strong. If you needed to roll at difficulty 8 or higher, you were either dealing with a freak or you were getting an exceptionally strong willed individual to go against their nature. But if you were getting difficulty 6 dominates regularly, your storyteller would either be ignoring rules to curb your strength or would be very optimistic about Humanity in the World of Darkness.


                        Dominate is much weaker because Mesmorize has been utterly stripped down of all it's features.


                        For ease of reference: "VTM" means every edition that isn't V5, because V5... it's a very different product, and I don't want to write "Pre-V5" because that's lame and I'm lazy.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                          That's an incredibly shallow reading. Most mortals had less than 5 willpower, auto success isn't that much better than difficulty 3 rolls from a dice pool that's very often strong. If you needed to roll at difficulty 8 or higher, you were either dealing with a freak or you were getting an exceptionally strong willed individual to go against their nature. But if you were getting difficulty 6 dominates regularly, your storyteller would either be ignoring rules to curb your strength or would be very optimistic about Humanity in the World of Darkness.

                          Dominate is much weaker because Mesmorize has been utterly stripped down of all it's features.
                          I frankly think the lack of needs for multiple successes is a big deal. Also, the fact Mass Dominate now exists.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • #14
                            CTPhipps “throwing lightning is in LA by Night”

                            Do you mean the book from the Nineties or a new book?


                            Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                              CTPhipps “throwing lightning is in LA by Night”

                              Do you mean the book from the Nineties or a new book?
                              The canonical web series as STed by Jason Carl.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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