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  • #16
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    I frankly think the lack of needs for multiple successes is a big deal. Also, the fact Mass Dominate now exists.
    A regular sucess is 2 dice sucess, no? Also mass dominate exist in v3/v20.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by blailton View Post

      A regular sucess is 2 dice sucess, no? Also mass dominate exist in v3/v20.

      A regular success on something that isn't resisted is based on the difficulty; but 1 success is the baseline. It's not like prior editions where you needed 3 successes to completely do something.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by blailton View Post

        A regular sucess is 2 dice sucess, no? Also mass dominate exist in v3/v20.
        Yes but not for "normal" characters at 1-5 level.

        You needed eyecontact.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #19
          Thank you.


          “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

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          • #20
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            I frankly think the lack of needs for multiple successes is a big deal. Also, the fact Mass Dominate now exists.
            It seems like you didn't use Dominate much. I thought you liked Malks, but I guess you went with dementation.

            If you're making a character with dominate in VTM, and you're not putting all your social points into appearance to fulfill your dream of being a cute girl, chances are your manipulation is 3 or 4, more likely 4, because Malkavians, Lasombra and to some extent Giovanni have a manipulation a broadly useful stat across disciplines, with Tremere you're kinda supposed to be odius so dumping it all into manipulation's A-OK only with Ventrue is there a competition with charisma/appearance due to presence. and you've variably put dots into Intimidation, leadership and subterfuge. So, at character creation, you've very likely got between 4 and 8 dots, more likely towards the upper end of that. If you're dominating a normal person, you can expect maybe one or two failed dice, and the rest succeed.


            But, we've danced this dance before.

            Mesmorize in V5, which is basically the linchpin of dominate, has been gutted (It doesn't actually work at all if you read it literally)
            -The person becomes a braindead zombie who can't communicate, which was not the case in VTM. This really hurts creativity and endangers the masquerade, and it massively impacts mission success rate because the victim mindlessly moves from A to B without being allowed to work out the best way to do it.
            -It has to be something immediate, which was not the case in VTM; you could plant a long term dominate, or even a false thought (Your wife plans to kill you!) This really hurts creativity
            -You cannot set conditions, which was the case in VTM. This really, really hurts creativity
            -It can't be something that requires you to exercise cognition, which means it literally doesn't work at all for maybe anything but Rep Exercises, but not being a prescriptivist, it is still a vague and confusing line. I guess they want to say you can't ask for door codes or speak about what happened at the meeting, because they really want to put game mechanics before sense (While we're here, Celerity 3 having two very similar seperate powers is an interesting gameplay choice, but it's total anathema to creating a cohesive world) But really it means you can't have someone operate a rifle, attack a specified target, use any of their fighting skills, talk their way past someone...

            Dominate was raped. It's just a shadow of what it was. "Oh, I don't need to roll anymore' is like finding out the rapist is wearing a nice shoes.


            Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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            • #21
              Again, I think you underestimate how big of an advantage that NO ROLL NECESSARY is. Plenty of times I'd get no successes on 8 dice. Because that's how the beast goes sometime.

              But maybe that's just me.

              All I know is that my players went from using it rarely to using it dozens of times a game.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                It seems like you didn't use Dominate much. I thought you liked Malks, but I guess you went with dementation.

                If you're making a character with dominate in VTM, and you're not putting all your social points into appearance to fulfill your dream of being a cute girl, chances are your manipulation is 3 or 4, more likely 4, because Malkavians, Lasombra and to some extent Giovanni have a manipulation a broadly useful stat across disciplines, with Tremere you're kinda supposed to be odius so dumping it all into manipulation's A-OK only with Ventrue is there a competition with charisma/appearance due to presence. and you've variably put dots into Intimidation, leadership and subterfuge. So, at character creation, you've very likely got between 4 and 8 dots, more likely towards the upper end of that. If you're dominating a normal person, you can expect maybe one or two failed dice, and the rest succeed.


                But, we've danced this dance before.

                Mesmorize in V5, which is basically the linchpin of dominate, has been gutted (It doesn't actually work at all if you read it literally)
                -The person becomes a braindead zombie who can't communicate, which was not the case in VTM. This really hurts creativity and endangers the masquerade, and it massively impacts mission success rate because the victim mindlessly moves from A to B without being allowed to work out the best way to do it.
                -It has to be something immediate, which was not the case in VTM; you could plant a long term dominate, or even a false thought (Your wife plans to kill you!) This really hurts creativity
                -You cannot set conditions, which was the case in VTM. This really, really hurts creativity
                -It can't be something that requires you to exercise cognition, which means it literally doesn't work at all for maybe anything but Rep Exercises, but not being a prescriptivist, it is still a vague and confusing line. I guess they want to say you can't ask for door codes or speak about what happened at the meeting, because they really want to put game mechanics before sense (While we're here, Celerity 3 having two very similar seperate powers is an interesting gameplay choice, but it's total anathema to creating a cohesive world) But really it means you can't have someone operate a rifle, attack a specified target, use any of their fighting skills, talk their way past someone...

                Dominate was raped. It's just a shadow of what it was. "Oh, I don't need to roll anymore' is like finding out the rapist is wearing a nice shoes.
                I don't think it was nerfed. It works a little bit different though. You can implant suggestions, triggers, and everything, you just need the relevant power. You can do a mass dominate at level 5. With a combo of Presence, you can use only your voice without eye contact. You can make people kill themselves with another level 5 power.

                Specifically, Mesmerise never says that the victim becomes a zombie. Only that "The instructions must be carried out immediately to the victim’s best ability" Best ability to me, sounds like he will do the smartest and most efficient thing to complete the task. And considering the fact that a Tremere can now have both Possession and Mass Dominate or Terminal Decree is quite crazy.

                EDIT:
                Also, Dementation is quite amazing. You can see its effects in LA by Night, as Therese Voerman use it on Prince Vannevar Thomas.
                Last edited by Godforsaken; 03-09-2020, 06:36 AM.

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                • #23
                  Getting no successes with eight dice, when you're facing difficulties between 1 and 6 (In VTM) is a freak accident. It doesnt happen often. You really must've been using house ruled VTM if you think auto-win is a big deal

                  Needing to get powers that were once 2 at 3, 4 or 5 is significant, even if it's arguably easier in V5 to get disciplines due to resonance farming (something most storytellers won't let you get heavily into)/Diablerie. I don't think powers at 4 and above are feasible for characters to get out of clan, and 3 is pushing it. This goes extra for powers that were combined; Auspex had hieghtened senses, seeing the unseen, and premonition all as first level powers, but now you'd need to take three levels to gain all those, and as a result you're delaying the acquisition of higher level powers. With dominate, If I got 'submerged directive' at level 3, I'd need to push forgetful mind to level 4, which means I'd have to choose between rationalize and terminal decree for level 5, and I forever lock myself off from the one I don't have. Mass dominate is really a crutch or a quality of life improvement. It's a handy shortcut, but if you're good, you can just dominate a lot of people individually and set stuff up to happen at the same time by controling triggers. Mass dominate's really there for when you get caught off guard or need to rush, and for that I can only say "Get Good". Terminal decree is... does it work for near-suicidal actions? Like if I told you to go postal in parliament, would it actually give me any benefits because that's got a slim chance of no-injury? It's a storyteller arbitration. Rationalize... Wasn't really necessary back when dominate could be more subtle.

                  Mesmorize was a fantastic power. Now it's garbage. "The victim's best ability" also coincides with "Not being able to do anything that requires cognition"

                  Hold on let me grab this from the book:
                  "the victim becomes a mindless puppet while under its influence. "


                  I don't know which bit of incredibly inconsistent writing to go with, but it the author is explicitly unhappy with prior editions of dominate and has done their best to limit it's applications, so I would guess the second worst case scenario (The worst being dominate doesn't work at all because of the cognition limit) Even with 'Submerged directive" and the level shifts, a lot of the old dominate functionality is still missing.
                  You can't put in a false thought
                  You can't get a testimony
                  You can't get people to do something clever.
                  You can't make a drone-like obedient army.


                  I'd much rather have the old functionality at increased difficulty than decreased functionality at no difficulty. Best thing I can do now Is implant false memories that enable people's agreement to a plan.
                  Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 03-09-2020, 07:41 AM.


                  Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                  • #24
                    V20 Dominate could not be used against vampires of lower generation. V5 Dominate can, but they must spend willpower to negate the effect. Additionally, V5 allows no resistance roll in most cases when used against unsuspecting mortals.

                    V20 level 1 Command allows a simple, single one word order; run, agree, fall, jump, yawn, run. It can be used in a sentence but only one word of the sentence has the power behind it.
                    V5 level 1 Compel allows a single action command, no longer than a short section.
                    V5 level 1 Cloud Memory allows the command "Forget" to be used to wipe the last few minutes of memory from the victim.

                    Comparing the two, I see much more versatility for Compel then I do for Command. Command : "ATTACK that man." The victim would mindlessly attack anything around them. Compel : "Strike that man." The victim would move over and engage a specific someone in a fight. Command : "Forget" has no set duration, only based on number of successes. Cloud Memory : "Forget" now takes the last few minutes of the victim from them.

                    V20 level 2 Mesmerize allows implanting a false thought or suggestion. This can be done immediately, or under a certain condition set.
                    V5 level 2 Mesmerize allows complex directives which are carried out immediately.
                    V5 level 2 Dementation allows for subtle conversational manipulation to cause damage to their willpower.

                    I will give you that V20 Mesmerize is broken up into a level 2 and a level 3 power, with the level 3 power being the triggered directive. Using Dementation against a lower generation vampire causes the same effect, but would require multiple turns of activation to wear them down, not just the one.

                    V20 level 3 The Forgetful Mind allows changing the victims memories of events based on the success, from a single memory to entire periods of their life.
                    V5 level 3 The Forgetful Mind allows changing the victims memories, each success above the margin allows addition memories. critical success makes those memories flawless.
                    V5 level 3 Submerged Directive allows Mesmerize to be used with a trigger.

                    Again, I'll grant that the Triggered mesmerize was increased in level, but it is now a permanent directive. "When someone pulls a gun, you disarm them" will now stay with them for the rest of their life.

                    V20 level 4 Conditioning gives mechanics to repeated uses of Dominate on the same target to make them more pliable to the user.
                    V5 level 4 Rationalize give mechanics to the victim rationalizing any use of Dominate, no matter how absurd.

                    Conditioning can be broken, and is frankly a lame power. Rationalize is permanent, save for a roll with a threshold of 5.

                    V20 level 5 Possession allows the user to control the body of the victim. This powe in V5 is an Auspex level 5 amalgam with Dominate 3. This power under Auspex is much more fitting with the manner of the discipline.

                    V5 level 5 Mass Manipulation allows previous uses of dominate on crowds. in V20, this was a level 7 power.
                    V5 level 5 Terminal Decree allows commands through dominate that would harm or evne kill the victim. This was something not really allowed in V20.

                    Additionally, Presence level 4 Irresistible Voice amalgam with Dominate 1 allows your very presence to trigger Dominate, no longer needing direct eye contact. This was a level 6 power in V20.
                    Last edited by SarcasticJazzHands; 03-10-2020, 02:01 AM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                      Getting no successes with eight dice, when you're facing difficulties between 1 and 6 (In VTM) is a freak accident. It doesnt happen often. You really must've been using house ruled VTM if you think auto-win is a big deal

                      Needing to get powers that were once 2 at 3, 4 or 5 is significant, even if it's arguably easier in V5 to get disciplines due to resonance farming (something most storytellers won't let you get heavily into)/Diablerie. I don't think powers at 4 and above are feasible for characters to get out of clan, and 3 is pushing it. This goes extra for powers that were combined; Auspex had hieghtened senses, seeing the unseen, and premonition all as first level powers, but now you'd need to take three levels to gain all those, and as a result you're delaying the acquisition of higher level powers. With dominate, If I got 'submerged directive' at level 3, I'd need to push forgetful mind to level 4, which means I'd have to choose between rationalize and terminal decree for level 5, and I forever lock myself off from the one I don't have. Mass dominate is really a crutch or a quality of life improvement. It's a handy shortcut, but if you're good, you can just dominate a lot of people individually and set stuff up to happen at the same time by controling triggers. Mass dominate's really there for when you get caught off guard or need to rush, and for that I can only say "Get Good". Terminal decree is... does it work for near-suicidal actions? Like if I told you to go postal in parliament, would it actually give me any benefits because that's got a slim chance of no-injury? It's a storyteller arbitration. Rationalize... Wasn't really necessary back when dominate could be more subtle.

                      Mesmorize was a fantastic power. Now it's garbage. "The victim's best ability" also coincides with "Not being able to do anything that requires cognition"

                      Hold on let me grab this from the book:
                      "the victim becomes a mindless puppet while under its influence. "


                      I don't know which bit of incredibly inconsistent writing to go with, but it the author is explicitly unhappy with prior editions of dominate and has done their best to limit it's applications, so I would guess the second worst case scenario (The worst being dominate doesn't work at all because of the cognition limit) Even with 'Submerged directive" and the level shifts, a lot of the old dominate functionality is still missing.
                      You can't put in a false thought
                      You can't get a testimony
                      You can't get people to do something clever.
                      You can't make a drone-like obedient army.


                      I'd much rather have the old functionality at increased difficulty than decreased functionality at no difficulty. Best thing I can do now Is implant false memories that enable people's agreement to a plan.
                      What do mean by false thought? Can you give some examples?

                      You never could extract a testimony before using Dominate, not like you could with Telepathy. You could, and still can, Dominate a person to go to X bar for an hour, or until it closes, observe what goes on there (or observe a specific person, or people fitting a particular description, or everyone playing pool, or everyone with a mohawk), then go meet with Joe at X location and tell him everything you saw and heard there at the bar (you may have to be clearer on the wording). If need be, you could instead instruct them to write down what they observe, then deliver what they wrote down. With submerged directive you can even tell them to do this every Friday at 6 pm, or every full moon, indefinitely.

                      You never really could use Dominate to have people do clever things.

                      By drone-like army do you mean the power Conditioning? If so, just rewrite it for V5. Now with multiple powers at each Discipline level there’s no reason you can’t. They’ll probably add it or something like it in a future book in fact.
                      Last edited by Archasimos; 03-10-2020, 03:22 AM.


                      I’m a writer. A storyteller. They’re my passions. They’re what I do. The stories I tell, they are my mythologies. Like the Norse tales of Odin, Thor, and Loki, or the Celtic fables of Lugh or Cú Chulainn, I want them to be the kind that people retell. They are the legacies I wish to leave behind.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                        Getting no successes with eight dice, when you're facing difficulties between 1 and 6 (In VTM) is a freak accident. It doesnt happen often. You really must've been using house ruled VTM if you think auto-win is a big deal
                        Statistically it happens in around 8% of cases at 8 dice and default difficulty 6. Which doesn't sound like much until you realize that's about every 12th roll or so. Far from a Freak accident. The 1s-remove-successes system is pretty much to blame.
                        EDIT: Just checked. Without the 1s-take-successes mechanic, that'd shrink to about 0.4% at that difficulty. Mind you, in V5 I think that mechanic *is* gone, and replaced by the messy criticals..
                        Last edited by Ambrosia; 03-10-2020, 02:54 AM.


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                        • #27
                          I'm convinced nobody else knows about how dominate worked given these responses.

                          Dominate doesn't default to difficulty 6, dominate defaults to the target's willpower. Going by werewolf charts, 9% of the population have a willpower rating higher than six, 10% have six. 30% have willpower 1 or 2, which means you don't need to roll.
                          Making it so that it auto-works on mortals is actually a buff I don't like. Willpower should mean something. Having a willpower of 9 or 10 (2% of the population) means you've basically encountered a super-human that you need to work around (or eliminate) and can't just directly use them.


                          False thought. You could use memorise to implant these kinds of suggestions
                          "Your wife is cheating on you and she plans to kill you."
                          "They're lizard people, what you just witnessed was an attack by the lizard people. "
                          "God loves you, you're the best".
                          "Our country is not struggling now because we've had a right wing government for the past ten years, but because young people are being taught by left wing teachers."
                          "Libertarians are smart people and you should become one."
                          "Women should dress modestly."


                          Endless creative opportunities, gone with V5.
                          The only thing that was a problem in prior editions with dominating a testimony out of them was that, usually, giving a testimony against your best interests and against your nature is hard, and giving a testimony that will increase the likelyhood of your death would be a five-success job if you weren't certain and impossible if you were. But the thing was, ultimately, you could try dominate a testimony out of someone. It's just that nuances like context mattered.

                          Oh, and with the triggers, you could make a recurring trigger, which you can't actually do with V5. In V5, if they see a red car, you can get them to yell "red car" the first time, but then you'd have to re-dominate them. In VTM, They'd be yelling "red car" every time.
                          Do I need to get into again how pushing conditional mesmerise to level 3 means you've got to choose between it and Forgetful mind? You don't have both by level 3, like you would in VTM, you have one or the other and it'll eat into 4....

                          Objectively, dominate is weaker. One step forward, eight steps back.


                          Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            I'm convinced nobody else knows about how dominate worked given these responses.

                            Dominate doesn't default to difficulty 6, dominate defaults to the target's willpower. Going by werewolf charts, 9% of the population have a willpower rating higher than six, 10% have six. 30% have willpower 1 or 2, which means you don't need to roll.
                            Making it so that it auto-works on mortals is actually a buff I don't like. Willpower should mean something. Having a willpower of 9 or 10 (2% of the population) means you've basically encountered a super-human that you need to work around (or eliminate) and can't just directly use them.
                            It's not automatic. Only if they can't see it coming. If they see it coming or you are asking them to do something weird they will roll against you, and the roll represents how tough they are to manipulate.

                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            False thought. You could use memorise to implant these kinds of suggestions
                            "Your wife is cheating on you and she plans to kill you."
                            "They're lizard people, what you just witnessed was an attack by the lizard people. "
                            "God loves you, you're the best".
                            "Our country is not struggling now because we've had a right wing government for the past ten years, but because young people are being taught by left wing teachers."
                            "Libertarians are smart people and you should become one."
                            "Women should dress modestly.

                            Endless creative opportunities, gone with V5.
                            The only thing that was a problem in prior editions with dominating a testimony out of them was that, usually, giving a testimony against your best interests and against your nature is hard, and giving a testimony that will increase the likelyhood of your death would be a five-success job if you weren't certain and impossible if you were. But the thing was, ultimately, you could try dominate a testimony out of someone. It's just that nuances like context mattered.
                            The Forgetful Mind
                            "System: The user rolls a contest of Manipulation + Dominate vs Intelligence + Resolve. Each point of margin allows the user to add or remove an additional memory. The victim recalls the edits vaguely, foggy ideations that can fall apart under close questioning. A critical win creates a flawless imprint, as real as any true memory."

                            Yes, you can't change their personality, but you can change their lives, creating new traumas in their past, create a series of events that will affect future reactions and decision making and so forth. I see a lot of creativity here.

                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            Oh, and with the triggers, you could make a recurring trigger, which you can't actually do with V5. In V5, if they see a red car, you can get them to yell "red car" the first time, but then you'd have to re-dominate them. In VTM, They'd be yelling "red car" every time.
                            Do I need to get into again how pushing conditional mesmerise to level 3 means you've got to choose between it and Forgetful mind? You don't have both by level 3, like you would in VTM, you have one or the other and it'll eat into 4....
                            Submerged Directive
                            "When using Mesmerize, the vampire can now implant a posthypnotic suggestion, allowing the command to remain dormant until a specific stimulus occurs. This trigger can be anything from a specific date, to a person (“When you meet Roland, tell him these words”), to hearing a specific phrase. The Submerged Directive never expires; people can conceivably walk around with an order buried in their mind for years. The user can only embed one suggestion per victim."

                            So you can tell a victim "Every time you see a red car, yell RED CAR!" and you will have it.

                            I will take extra powers and extra customization over the old discipline structure every day of the week. Now you don't know what powers other vampires have, even if they are the same clan as you. Two dominate or potence users can have totally different abilities and it's amazing.


                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            Objectively, dominate is weaker. One step forward, eight steps back.
                            Different, not weak at all. Please remember that the entire game changed, not only dominate.

                            I played since 1st edition. I saw disciplines change, reworked, removed. The dominate changes are hardly a nerf. It's not a big deal at all. If we were talking about Celerity, then yes, there's an argument here, but Dominate? Nah... it's too small for me to care.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                              I'm convinced nobody else knows about how dominate worked given these responses.
                              And you're wrong.

                              Dominate doesn't default to difficulty 6, dominate defaults to the target's willpower.
                              Which is..mostly moot in actual gameplay, really.
                              At the tables I've been at, in 99% of cases the ST handwaved Dominate rolls against low-WP targets because they're so easy, and the rolls they actually had players roll were all WP 5+ anyways - which were all the special mooks, notable enemies, plot-important people, other Supernaturals...literally all the stuff where it actually matters or there's a challenge.

                              In the end, STs seldomly toss anything lower than 6 WP at you where it actually matters for the campaign or plot. They don't give a damn about that percentage table unless a player literally goes "I dominate a random person on the street".
                              Last edited by Ambrosia; 03-10-2020, 06:57 AM.


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                              • #30
                                For me, the fact that you can affect every generation with Dominate is enough to warrant the changes that some deem as nerfs. IMO it was a crippling disadvantage that forced you to take the generation background if you wanted to affect most other vampires around you.

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