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V5 - Canon stance on power level changes?

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  • IllithidActivity
    started a topic V5 - Canon stance on power level changes?

    V5 - Canon stance on power level changes?

    Kind of a weird question, but I'm curious. In the transition to V5 a number of Disciplines got rebalanced and generally depowered, but none moreso than Thaumaturgy/Blood Sorcery. Gone are the days of lightning bolts and fireballs. And similarly the Tremere as a whole are depowered, literally, as the collapse of the pyramid took their ability to Blood Bond other Kindred with it. My question is: Is the weakened state of Thaumaturgy an in-canon development in which Tremere fifty years ago could shoot fire but they've lost the power, or is it a complete retcon and V5 assumes that they've only ever had access to the rituals and powers that they can use right now?

  • Archasimos
    replied
    Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
    A low gen can spend 1 WP to negate V5 dominate effects so inmunity stands
    That’s not foolproof immunity that lower generation Cainites had in previous editions. Willpower is a finite resource, and a target might not always have Willpower to spend. One tactic would be to reduce a target’s Willpower/inflict enough Willpower damage on them to hopefully bring their Willpower to zero, either through a power or by engaging them in social combat, maybe multiple social combats, then afterward try to Dominate them. This adds another interesting reason to engage in social combat.
    Last edited by Archasimos; 03-11-2020, 04:07 PM.

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  • Godforsaken
    replied
    Originally posted by SarcasticJazzHands View Post
    Alright, stepping away from Dominate specifically for a moment. What if things are as intended. The concept of a cyclical Gehenna has been postulated. This is the time of thin blood. Perhaps it is not just the time of Thin Bloods, but of a weakening of the blood as a whole. The elders see this, feel it, hence the beckoning. Attempting to fortify oneself against that loss of power. They can see their powers are "less effective," and the vary nature of their interaction with the blood is changing. No longer able to maintain a whirling combat dervish of attacks. Powers and levels change over time. Can make some of the same comparisons between Dark Ages and Modern.
    Dark Ages and Modern was exactly what I thought. Maybe the very old ones consolidate their power, eat their children and then the circle starts again. Maybe Beckett was right, and the Thin Bloods are the start of new bloodlines, as they can, in a way, create new powers.

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  • IllithidActivity
    replied
    Originally posted by SarcasticJazzHands View Post
    Alright, stepping away from Dominate specifically for a moment. What if things are as intended. The concept of a cyclical Gehenna has been postulated. This is the time of thin blood. Perhaps it is not just the time of Thin Bloods, but of a weakening of the blood as a whole. The elders see this, feel it, hence the beckoning. Attempting to fortify oneself against that loss of power. They can see their powers are "less effective," and the vary nature of their interaction with the blood is changing. No longer able to maintain a whirling combat dervish of attacks. Powers and levels change over time. Can make some of the same comparisons between Dark Ages and Modern.
    This is the idea that I'm curious about, it would give a lot of weight to the Elders' panic over the "Time of the Thin-Bloods." Many mid-to-high generation Kindred wouldn't be noticing a difference, but the Elders who once had 6-9 dot-level Disciplines can't muster the same mojo they used to, and they desperately want to keep that a secret so ancillae and even neonates don't think "You know what, my three dots aren't all that much fewer than your five dots. I can take you." It might also explain the Beckoning as Antediluvians call out to their clans in the hopes of thickening their own blood again. Or maybe rekindling the bloodlines?

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  • Lioness
    replied
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    Dominate was raped. It's just a shadow of what it was. "Oh, I don't need to roll anymore' is like finding out the rapist is wearing a nice shoes.
    Please don't compare unwanted rule changes to sexual assault.

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  • SarcasticJazzHands
    replied
    Alright, stepping away from Dominate specifically for a moment. What if things are as intended. The concept of a cyclical Gehenna has been postulated. This is the time of thin blood. Perhaps it is not just the time of Thin Bloods, but of a weakening of the blood as a whole. The elders see this, feel it, hence the beckoning. Attempting to fortify oneself against that loss of power. They can see their powers are "less effective," and the vary nature of their interaction with the blood is changing. No longer able to maintain a whirling combat dervish of attacks. Powers and levels change over time. Can make some of the same comparisons between Dark Ages and Modern.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    But you might as well ask the same question about every discipline, because, aside from the lack of paths (which may be in another book) every discipline got weakened considerably, or have been made unrecognizable. Physical disciplines work completely differently from how they worked before, metaphysics seem to have been re-written.

    The Generational barrier for dominate is gone.
    Presence and Celerity are no longer the greedy disciplines, and other disciplines have become blood consuming instead.
    Celerity has changed in the extreme, to the point of being an entirely different discipline both mechanically and how it's metaphysically supposed to work.
    Disciplines have options each level, and you can't take more than five, that's a huge canonical shift. Especially because now you don't have a clean order to things, you can skip powers or take the advanced form of another power without taking the first power (You can Possess without learning shared senses, for instance)
    The changes to animalism should mean some Familiars should be legendary, when they havent been mentioned before.
    Many once-passive disciplines have become active powers, meaning more ambushes and car bombings aught to happen.

    The changes in V5 are so big that they should effect canon massively. And then we argued about if those changes are really that big. Look, if you wanted to control the thread more, you should've picked a better title. Because as painful as explaining that Dominate's weaker is, it's still relevant to the Tremere, the title of this thread, and to a degree the Original post.

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  • Godforsaken
    replied
    Originally posted by IllithidActivity View Post
    Can we just...stop having this discussion? It's entirely off the rails of the conversation I was asking for when making this thread, which was about the Tremere's capacity for Blood Sorcery and which was answered quite well by CTPhipps in the second post. The entire rest of this thread has been a 4chan-esque argument where both sides have an opinion and don't care what the other side's opinion is as long as they can keep arguing. While the initial spark to this thread was about certain Disciplines being de-powered in the edition change, that wasn't really an invitation to talk about which edition is better because it's stronger or which edition is better because the powers are weaker. And overall, a thread created to discuss V5 isn't really a platform for someone to come in and say "V5 is terrible, here's why, play V20 instead." That's just not a conversation I want to have.

    Agree. I really got carried away here...

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  • IllithidActivity
    replied
    Can we just...stop having this discussion? It's entirely off the rails of the conversation I was asking for when making this thread, which was about the Tremere's capacity for Blood Sorcery and which was answered quite well by CTPhipps in the second post. The entire rest of this thread has been a 4chan-esque argument where both sides have an opinion and don't care what the other side's opinion is as long as they can keep arguing. While the initial spark to this thread was about certain Disciplines being de-powered in the edition change, that wasn't really an invitation to talk about which edition is better because it's stronger or which edition is better because the powers are weaker. And overall, a thread created to discuss V5 isn't really a platform for someone to come in and say "V5 is terrible, here's why, play V20 instead." That's just not a conversation I want to have.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    The rules aren't entirely incompatible. I'd wager a lot that a vampire with V20 dominate trounces a similarly built v5 dominate vampire.

    Dominate now ignoring generation is 'strong' for dominate, but it's a weakening of vampires and generations as a whole. Which is really what the title of this thread's about.

    V20 dominate, Assuming we're in clan, 3 levels of dominate is worth 25xp.
    In V5, to be able to approach what that V20 vampire can do, I would need four levels and 40xp. Obviously this gets even worse when you're buying out of clan The only possible improvement in V5 dominate is that maybe, you like forget more than command.

    If we wanna talk Auspex, oh boy.
    10xp, 15xp, 25xp, 40xp

    Seeing the unseen, Heightened senses, and premonition were all folded into level 1 auspex. You would need to spend 25xp to gain what VTM players got with 10xp and one dot. If you wanted to cover everything you could do in VTM... You can't. You've used three dots of your five, You've got two dots left for Aura perception (which is now level 3), spirits touch (level 4) Telepathy (level 5) and, well, let's say clairvoyance (level 5) is can stand in for astral form. You can only take one level 5 power, and if you wanted to mimic old dominate, you'd be screwed here too, because you need to use a precious auspex dot for possession.

    Now, look, maybe that's unfair. You don't need to emulate old editions when you can do new things, right? But fact is, one power becoming two or three means that power is getting weaker. V5 gives you choices, but taking something means you have to exclude something else, because although you can go back and get something, you're using one of your five slots, and you're using the same amount of XP to get a third level power when you go back and buy a level 2. Even if you look at auspex and think 'well, I didn't really need premonition and the spirit's touch is a whole lot weaker now so I don't really want it anymore; you're probably going to want to have both seeing the unseen and hightened senses, you're still going to only have one choice of a 5th level power.

    For animalism, level 2 is now feral whispers and summoning; though that might be great in the long term because you're getting two powers with one precious dot, Animalism initially is a whole lot weaker because you're not getting feral whispers at level 1, at level 1 you choose between something half as useful and a familiar who's initially nearly useless but soon synergizes with other disciplines for the purpose of powergaming.

    One thing that struck me while reading through the rules and making a character;
    They're a lot less generous with dots of attributes/abilities.

    But also, a lot of discipline nowers are attribute+power. Which means you really have to invest more into a power. Increasing a discipline for it's own sake is much more common, and you can't be a master of low level animalism because you dumped a lot into animal ken/intimidate. You've gotta buy more dots of the discipline. I think, this actually makes vampires weaker, because disciplines are too important compared to normal skills and it's not a great idea to 'go wide' with powers. From a narrative standpoint, I don't hate this change, but from a mechanical one, I don't like it.

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  • Leandro16
    replied
    A low gen can spend 1 WP to negate V5 dominate effects so inmunity stands

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  • Godforsaken
    replied
    Moron's move? it really depends on the scenario, we have no data here. Tone-deaf bandaid? what it has to do with the discussion? those are the rules, and we are not talking about if they are stupid, we are asking if dominate got nerfed in V5. Right now you can dominate everyone. The discipline can work if you have the attributes (and some times luck) to back it up. And this is all I ask from power if you are smart enough you will never roll against mortals and you always have a shot at other kindreds when you need it. Dominate is amazing in combat especially for vampires who are not fighters and need a "get out of jail card".

    I will take a power that works on everyone and might even be free on mortals if I play my cards right (I don't think it's weaker but for the sake of the point) to the power that every 12th gen and below vampire is immune to because I decided not to take the generation background, and also have to roll against mortals.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    Dominating another vampire has always been a moron's move, unless you're in a possition/context when you know it'll pan out. Dominating another vampire is a real faux pas, basically liscence for someone else to build a grudge against you, or demand prestation because you did something for someone and they were obviously desperate to use Dominate. Also, yknow, moving on to what this thread is about rather than just dominate, the fact that generation was an inviolable barrier for dominate was a testament of vampire power and the Hierarchy/ladder there was to climb. Now that its gone, everything's equalized and power levels are lower.

    In VTM, if you wanted to fuck with an elder using dominate, you could, you just had to be smart about it. Go after the vampire's non-blood bound lackeys. Get a stranger to go after a blood bound lackey, have someone deliver a bomb to their haven....

    Being able to dominate those with a better generation is a tone-deaf bandaid.

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  • Godforsaken
    replied
    I don't think that you can say "Your childer is planning to eat you", because there is no directive or command in this. It needs to be a directive or command that can fulfill itself.
    "Mesmerize allows for anything from simple, precise directives (handing over an item) to complex, highly involved ones (taking notes of someone’s habits and relaying that information at an appointed time). It is not useful for planting illusions or false memories."

    The number of successes determines how well the suggestion takes hold in the victim’s subconscious. If the vampire scores one or two successes, the subject cannot be forced to do anything that seems strange to her (she might walk outside, but is unlikely to steal a car). At three or four successes, the command is effective unless following it endangers the subject. At five successes or greater, the vampire can implant nearly any sort of command.

    As you can see, the victim needs to know what to do. You need to give them some directions.

    On the other hand. in V5, it has to be a complex command that must be fulfilled now, but it won't require a roll unless it's weird or the victim is a vampire. So yes, the power is weaker, and you need a level 3 power to make it work like the old mesmerize. BUT!!! it affects every generation. And this is the main thing here. Who cares about mortals? you can ghoul them, you can blood bond them, you can use a lot of things on them. But when it comes to vampire the old dominate is garbage. Most of the time you won't even know the generation of others, so you might make a fool of yourself, and if you know, well, unless you are quite low yourself, you can't affect other vampires. It's a crippling disadvantage that made presence a superior discipline.


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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    Originally posted by Draconis View Post

    Oh hey, found a better piece of evidence against it. Look at Implanted Opinion in V20 Lore of the Clans (page 123). This is a six-dot Elder Dominate power that causes someone to accept a single opinion, thought, or belief as their own (with "the aliens are after me" given as a specific example).

    If two-dot Mesmerize were intended to do that, there wouldn't be a published six-dot power to do the same thing.

    There are two reasons why I don't look at this and go "Job's done, argument over, you win, good day sir"
    First, lore of the clans came in very late. When was revised released? Dominate suggested you could implant a false thought for a decade and a half. Anecdote; this is written in the Lasombra section and, well, I played a character with the -eyes of shadow merit- and, well, as much as I love this book I don't think they thought everything through. This discipline you're pointing to has an emotion-affecting side to it, and Dominate explicitly does not touch emotions, only thoughts, so it doesn't really fit.

    Second, I think there's still a big difference in this power and from what I'm describing with level 2 mesmorize.
    Implanted opinion creates a concsious opinion. Something you adopt, internalise, and conciously espouse at the expense of prior opinions and logic. You actually have a harder time getting more extreme changes down, and the old opinion only returns after months of living in an environment conducive to it.
    I'm talking about an unconscious thought, a nagging feeling.

    Let's say "Your childer is planning to eat you"
    With the two dot power, you take precautions. You're in denial.
    With the six dot power, You just move to kill your child (or create distance).

    Lets say "jazz music is beautiful and a worthwhile artform"
    With the two dot power, you get curious about this awful music, you become interested in discovering things about it. Maybe you don't like this tune but you might like the next one...
    With the six dot power, you love and defend jazz. I'll treat anyone who says they like this crap as a victim of this power.



    (reminder: The presence or absense of false thought manipulation does not change the fact that V5 dominate is still significantly weaker.)
    Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 03-11-2020, 04:38 AM.

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