Garou vs Kindred?

[Rock113]

All use 20th system, garou of W20, ignore vampiric “highest level wins” crossover rules, cover all levels (from anarch to elder to methuselah), who will win? Did anyone do this kind of test?

The battle should be involved in same-level npcs who are invested with appropriate exp and traits. For example, a heavily combat-oriented Rank 5 Ahroun vs powerful 6th or 5th gens Gangrel or Brujah elder like Karsh

I know it’s a topic appearing from time to time. Someone had done test alike but it’s on average level:

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/vampire-the-masquerade/837527-deadliest-supernatural-warrior-results-and-analysis

[blailton]

Vampire at chargen can buy Majesty, a power garou dont have a way to resist.

[Sergeant Brother]

At almost any level a werewolf is going to have the advantage. Once you get to the very highest levels of power, you have so many weird powerful Gifts and Disciplines at play that it becomes much harder to model and white rooms become less realistic.

[Aleph]

Vampire at chargen can buy Majesty, a power garou dont have a way to resist.

I was under the impression that Majesty could be resisted by expending a WP point

[blailton]

I was under the impression that Majesty could be resisted by expending a WP point

The garou can, but only after a sucessfull courage roll (a stat garou dont have in their sheet)

[Archasimos]

The garou can, but only after a sucessfull courage roll (a stat garou dont have in their sheet)

That would not preclude them from receiving some kind of resistance roll in place of Courage. Also V20 says anyone can resist Presence for one scene by spending a Willpower point and succeeding on a Willpower roll (Difficulty 8), but the affected individual must keep spending points until he is no longer in the presence of the vampire. If the Garou succeeds, they might opt to try to kill the Cainite using Majesty instead of leaving their presence.

[Heavy Arms]

Any Presence power can be resisted by spending a WP and rolling WP at diff 8. Though claiming that any characters that don't have Courage on their sheet can't roll something to overcome Majesty in Majesty's specific resistance rules is a fairly poor argument.

Of course, these are supposed to be characters of equal investment in the same general areas. Social power house Garou can throw around some pretty crazy things too (even if you might need Totem or Fetish to pull them off at start... those are much cheaper than 14/15 of your freebies going into maxing out one Discipline). Hell the Rank 1 Persuasion Gift alone makes Majesty kinda pointless, because the Garou will have -1 diff on all their social rolls for the scene and can convince the vampire to do things far exceeding what the vampire would normally agree too; the Garou just has to come at their approach laterally than in direct opposition. A Ragabash (with any number of potential permutations) can just play the loyal suck-up whispering in the Presence user's ear, and convincing the Presence user to do what the Garou wants because clearly the undead will be better off following the will of Gaia than their tendency to be tempted by the Wyrm and Weaver.

[blailton]

That would not preclude them from receiving some kind of resistance roll in place of Courage. Also V20 says anyone can resist Presence for one scene by spending a Willpower point and succeeding on a Willpower roll (Difficulty 8), but the affected individual must keep spending points until he is no longer in the presence of the vampire. If the Garou succeeds, they might opt to try to kill the Cainite using Majesty instead of leaving their presence.

Special rule prevails over general rule.

For example, in v20 no vampire can spend more blood points than their generation allows, EXCEPT (special rule) using Celerity 5 ( five blood points a turn) or being targeted at the second level of path of blood. If no vampires can use more blood points than the generation allows, celerity bigger than 3 would be useless in player characters hands.

Back to presence
General rule: you can resist presence by spending a willpower point

majesty special rule: you CAN resist presence by spendind willpower point, BUT BEFORE THAT you need to succeed in a courage roll (and then spend the willpower point).

[blailton]

Any Presence power can be resisted by spending a WP and rolling WP at diff 8. Though claiming that any characters that don't have Courage on their sheet can't roll something to overcome Majesty in Majesty's specific resistance rules is a fairly poor argument.

Of course, these are supposed to be characters of equal investment in the same general areas. Social power house Garou can throw around some pretty crazy things too (even if you might need Totem or Fetish to pull them off at start... those are much cheaper than 14/15 of your freebies going into maxing out one Discipline). Hell the Rank 1 Persuasion Gift alone makes Majesty kinda pointless, because the Garou will have -1 diff on all their social rolls for the scene and can convince the vampire to do things far exceeding what the vampire would normally agree too; the Garou just has to come at their approach laterally than in direct opposition. A Ragabash (with any number of potential permutations) can just play the loyal suck-up whispering in the Presence user's ear, and convincing the Presence user to do what the Garou wants because clearly the undead will be better off following the will of Gaia than their tendency to be tempted by the Wyrm and Weaver.

I don't think its a poor argument... And I dont think a -1 gonna do miracles either. Also the majesty user can bs the garou too.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

The garou can, but only after a sucessfull courage roll (a stat garou dont have in their sheet)

According to Werewolf: the Dark Ages, Rage or Willpower can be used in place of Courage. Alternately, Icy Chill of Despair uses almost the same mechanics, and can be referenced for crossover disputes.

[Sergeant Brother]

If Majesty can be resisted for only one turn, it is enough time for a hostile werewolf to do serious damage to most vampires. Majesty is nice, but if someone (werewolf or otherwise) has the intent and ability to easily kill you in combat then they probably still can.

[Heavy Arms]

Special rule prevails over general rule.

If they're in contradiction. If both can apply, both still apply.

For example, in v20 no vampire can spend more blood points than their generation allows, EXCEPT (special rule) using Celerity 5 ( five blood points a turn) or being targeted at the second level of path of blood. If no vampires can use more blood points than the generation allows, celerity bigger than 3 would be useless in player characters hands.

Bad examples, both of this are explicit exceptions spelled out as such.

majesty special rule: you CAN resist presence by spendind willpower point, BUT BEFORE THAT you need to succeed in a courage roll (and then spend the willpower point).

Nothing says you can't use either the general rule or the special rule, as befits your character. You CAN resist Majesty with Courage, you don't HAVE to if you want to use the general Presence rules instead. If you can resist a power with two different options, and the rules never say you have to pick one, you can use either; the general and specific are not in contradiction.

I don't think its a poor argument...

Obviously. That doesn't mean it isn't though.

And I dont think a -1 gonna do miracles either.

It's a fairly significant advantage between specialized characters, especially since a social Garou is likely to have more dice on their social rolls because they have freebies to spend on their base traits,and very cost efficient options like a Totem of Cunning and Fetishes.

The "miracles" are in the narrative applications of what Persuasion powered social rolls can pull off.

Also the majesty user can bs the garou too.

Yes, but since the Garou didn't blow all their freebies on picking up Majesty, the Garou is going to resist BS better, and BS better.

[Heavy Arms]

If Majesty can be resisted for only one turn, it is enough time for a hostile werewolf to do serious damage to most vampires. Majesty is nice, but if someone (werewolf or otherwise) has the intent and ability to easily kill you in combat then they probably still can.

Well, the premise of the thread is more "like vs. like."

A combat werewolf will murder a Presence one-trick pony before they can activate anything anyway.

[Archasimos]

What Heavy Arms said pretty much covers it.

[Rock113]

Once you get to the very highest levels of power, you have so many weird powerful Gifts and Disciplines at play that it becomes much harder to model and white rooms become less realistic.

How high? Do you mean methuselah (8-9) vs rank 6? Or 'just' elder (6-7) vs rank 4 or 5?

Maybe, although most rank 6 gifts are passable except some (One can resist all mental attack except those from Incarna), level 6 rites are alaways plot device. The one in Crotan Song and Rites of Vengeful Spider are only two having mechanics, Others I can recall are Rites of Waking Moon and Rites sacrifcing 13 rank 6 to bind Storm-Eater, they are created to do really epic things