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  • #16
    I think Troile, Ennoia, Arikel, Zapathasura, Lasombra and Tzimisce are all female (Tzimisce has the whole Dark Mother thing going on, and the night is seen as feminine in many cultures). That’s basically about half the Antediluvians. I’m pretty happy with that.


    Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

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    • #17
      I also think Set was Fourth Generation and became an Antediluvian because he Diablerized his Sire, a genderfluid person named Typhon.


      Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

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      • #18
        I cant see Lasombra or Zapathasura as female at all. Both are clearly male in my mind. Tzimisce seems to be born male aswell. But given that he is a master of the flesh, i am sure he has looked like a women at some point throughout history.
        Last edited by blackshade; 03-16-2020, 07:04 PM.

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        • #19
          Zapathasura is Romani, and the Romani are a gynocratic society.


          Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Penelope View Post
            Zapathasura is Romani, and the Romani are a gynocratic society.
            Zapathasura predates that Culture by an epoch, Romani are relatively modern compared to Antediluvians. Even the Veddic Culture is not ancient by their reckoning.


            It is a time for great deeds!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by blackshade View Post
              I cant see Lasombra or Zapathasura as female at all. Both are clearly male in my mind. Tzimisce seems to be born male aswell. But given that he is a master of the flesh, i am sure he has looked like a women at some point throughout history.
              I mean Lasombra is feminine title...


              It is a time for great deeds!

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              • #22
                Exactly! La Sombra. The Shadow.


                Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post
                  But anything can be done badly in the hands of a bad writer. There are settings that depict deeply sexist societies and institutions where women hold limited power, yet still manage to make female characters narratively relevant and to treat them with dignity (eg, no "Women in Refrigerators" tropes) despite the suffering they experience because of their gender. When a "sexist universe by a non-sexist author" is done well, it can be done very well.
                  If you need some one else to give you respect, dignity or relevance, inevitably end up never getting any of it. You have to make it for yourself and strangely enough the rest of the world starts to treat you in kind.

                  It kind of boggles the mind that in a game where you make your own characters, with your own storylines, often with your own home brew rules, there is a need for the developers or writers to change their backstory or setting. With that as a tool set, only the most limited of imaginations get hung up on trying to force canon into line with their personal needs.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post



                    I call it a '90s element because if VtM were getting released today, I doubt the writers would make such a large number of the setting's most powerful figures male. That just isn't flying in today's RPG industry climate.
                    Rather than calling the past move a '90's element', I'd call what's released today a 'late 2010's/early 2020's fad'. I've seen some awful 90's stuff, and that's not how they've treated Gender in WoD (OK, the dude who chopped his penis off and threw it in a guy's face is pretty up there.) I think the time period we're in now is obsessed with female empowerment, open gays and giving trans people a voice, Often at the expense of quality, realism, and white men (Not through giving power to a non-dominant group and threatening the dominance of white men, but by actively attacking straight white men) (middle class white women seem to be the real winners of this)
                    Maybe in half a decade people'll calm down and we'll start putting quality first. I'm not saying that giving voices to people that don't have one is bad, but the way they're doing it is. The lack of quality control is so bad that it feeds the far right. People need to learn that, just because you have a voice, doesn't mean it'll serve your interests. Agressive PC culture just looks like a mistake of neoliberalism to a lot of people.

                    Enforced diversity can be done badly. There are lots of writers, for White Wolf and other gaming companies, who've seemed to me as if they view their jobs as a form of activism and would benefit from dialing the ultra-woke rhetoric down a few notches.
                    Indeed.
                    To write for the left you need an understanding of the right. V5 goes out of it's way to tell right wing people to sit down and think about what went wrong in their lives... Yeah, that's not how you reach people, that's how you preach to the choir.


                    For ease of reference: "VTM" means every edition that isn't V5, because V5... it's a very different product, and I don't want to write "Pre-V5" because that's lame and I'm lazy.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post
                      But I'd say making more power players female is at best a superficial fix to the world's problems and at worst compounds them by lulling people into a false sense of progress. There are plenty of (U.S.) politicians on both sides of the aisle whose touted female appointees continue to pursue policies harmful to women.
                      I'm all for more women power player vampires. That said, these will not be antideluvians - the clan heads are basically legends. Myths that have little to no appearance in the actual game beyond some very high level games that are in the extreme minority.

                      I do care about gender balance, and don't see any of the Antediluvians' characters suffering by making them female. As others have pointed out, the Antediluvians are Cthulhu-esque blood gods fairly beyond the concept of gender, while the number of female vampires in the Dark Ages books gives lie to the idea that women get Embraced less often even in patriarchal mortal societies.
                      It "suffers" because, again, vampire society is very strongly patriarchal. And, as the Antediluvians are mythological figures, their portrayal is a deliberate casualty of that. The Church of Caine is a deliberate twist of Christian religions, which is heavily represented by male icons. Our world, but worse.

                      The truth could very well be that there are far more female clan founders. But they're legends who 99.999999% don't show up, so the myths matter more than the actual people, as well as what the myths say about the myth writers and vampire society as a whole.

                      Originally posted by QueenHerla View Post
                      The cult of Lilith is more than just a feminist vampire movement,
                      It is more, sure. Never said otherwise. But the feminist aspect is still there, still part of the Bahari.

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                      • #26
                        It’s not a feminist issue. It’s just that in a mythic era long before the rise of the patriarchy (around 1800 BCE), there’s no reason the Second Generation (one of whom was female) wouldn’t have Embraced men and women in roughly equal numbers.


                        Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                          It’s not a feminist issue. It’s just that in a mythic era long before the rise of the patriarchy (around 1800 BCE)
                          Add about ten thousand years to that, and you'll be roughly there. Even more generous estimates give a rise of patriarchy at about 3000 BC.

                          The Gangrel ante actually makes sense as a woman as she's likely not from an agrarian society. Most of antes, however, would be from agrarian settlements, so the strong male bias makes sense. Even considering only hunter gatherer societies, there's still a good chance that males will be embraced like [nosferatu] because they've got a better chance to 'prove themselves' as hunters of dangerous things.

                          The sociology supports the current lineup.


                          For ease of reference: "VTM" means every edition that isn't V5, because V5... it's a very different product, and I don't want to write "Pre-V5" because that's lame and I'm lazy.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post
                            So, this is one of the '90s elements of the game that hasn't aged well.

                            Women: Arikel, Ennoia (2)
                            Sources Disagree: Troile (1)
                            Men: Absimiliard, Augustus, Cappadocius, Haqim, [Lasombra], Malkav, Saulot, Set, Tremere, [Tzimisce], [Ventrue], Zapathasura (12)
                            Good notation, though I wonder who could really be retconned in canon.

                            Malkav's sister is an interesting character that has showed up for lore wonks. Could she be Tzimisce? Would we even want her to be?
                            Last edited by CTPhipps; 03-17-2020, 07:25 AM.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                              there's still a good chance that males will be embraced like [nosferatu] because they've got a better chance to 'prove themselves' as hunters of dangerous things.
                              As a side note, I love that in-universe scholar's speculation, in Lasombra Revised, that [Lasombra] was this pathetic creature embraced on a whim. It gives the clan's power obsessed culture some character.

                              As for this thread, I'm actually imagining it as an in-universe discussion. I want more diversification, speculation and politicization of the antediluvians. I want authors to write how different groups adapt and use the narrative. What I don't need an actual 'truth' about the antes.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Thoth View Post
                                If you need some one else to give you respect, dignity or relevance, inevitably end up never getting any of it. You have to make it for yourself and strangely enough the rest of the world starts to treat you in kind.
                                In my experience, the people who most vocally espouse that kind of "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" rhetoric are beneficiaries of privilege who don't need to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.

                                But that real-world issue is irrelevant when we're talking about fictional representation. Characters only obtain whatever measure of respect, dignity, and relevance their author chooses to grant them.

                                It kind of boggles the mind that in a game where you make your own characters, with your own storylines, often with your own home brew rules, there is a need for the developers or writers to change their backstory or setting. With that as a tool set, only the most limited of imaginations get hung up on trying to force canon into line with their personal needs.
                                Speak for yourself. I find it needless limitation on anyone's imagination to say that established canon is too sacrosanct to alter for one's home games. If someone wants to swap around character genders, replace Chicago's Camarilla with their own homebrew Sabbat city, swap out what clans are in the sects, or throw out the game's Judeo-Christian myth and make vampires the result of an alien virus, good for them. Take the game's lore and make it your own. I haven't liked every fan idea I've read, but I've read tons I found entertaining or thought-provoking, and some I liked so much that I made them canon in my games. If someone wants to stick exclusively to official canon for their games, good for them too. But why they'd think anyone less hung up about official canon would appreciate advice to limit their imagination is beyond me.


                                Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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