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  • #31
    Originally posted by El Barto View Post

    As a side note, I love that in-universe scholar's speculation, in Lasombra Revised, that [Lasombra] was this pathetic creature embraced on a whim. It gives the clan's power obsessed culture some character.
    Sounds like Sabbat propaganda. "Yeah we killed him because he deserved it and we're better than him"

    Sure, He plays second fiddle to ventrue (Who's famed for Presence so, of course)


    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
      Sounds like Sabbat propaganda. "Yeah we killed him because he deserved it and we're better than him"

      Sure, He plays second fiddle to ventrue (Who's famed for Presence so, of course)
      I could see an Ante being a wretch as a mortal, but they survived the test of time and are one of the 13 surviving Blood Gods out of who knows how many got embraced in prehistory.


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #33
        I guess nobody told the 2nd Generation anything about equality quotas, back before the Flood.

        Clearly it hasn't got anything to do with social norms back then, right? (mildly sarcastic voice inserted)

        One could also wonder who had gotten their education so clearly wrong? Well, Cain, of course! The very root of agriculture-based patriarchal society (according to the Bible...)! Who had some...disagreements with the embodiment of female autonomy, Lilith. Yeah, one might wonder why there aren't more female antes and Methuselahs...

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        Seriously folks, this is such a non-issue. One could come up with plenty of in-world explanations. Also, a game, or a setting won't be good because of forced things because of this. It'd feel more aritficial, trying to conform things like thousand years-old vampires to very recent sensibilities, that society doesn't even have an unified oppinion about even now.

        But! If this is really that important to you personally, yeah, most information about antes are apocryphal, written down during the middle ages and you could change their sex/gender. I'm not even sure, if Malkav was clearly stated to be a male or a female, by someone who actually met her/him, but I didn't read every book. Or the original one of Tzimisce. I'm not even sure about Lasombra.


        If nothing worked, then let's think!

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        • #34
          Originally posted by PMárk View Post
          I guess nobody told the 2nd Generation anything about equality quotas, back before the Flood.

          Clearly it hasn't got anything to do with social norms back then, right? (mildly sarcastic voice inserted)

          One could also wonder who had gotten their education so clearly wrong? Well, Cain, of course! The very root of agriculture-based patriarchal society (according to the Bible...)! Who had some...disagreements with the embodiment of female autonomy, Lilith. Yeah, one might wonder why there aren't more female antes and Methuselahs...
          You are getting way too worked up about this. Wanting more female Antes isn’t necessarily an “”equality”” thing lol, it’s just thinking it would be interesting writing-wise.
          Also, in the WoD, God is supposedly a female. So if anything is rewriting for equality quotas, it’s canon itself lol.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
            Sounds like Sabbat propaganda. "Yeah we killed him because he deserved it and we're better than him"

            Sure, He plays second fiddle to ventrue (Who's famed for Presence so, of course)
            Well, in that specific case, not the Sabbat education, but family soap (the character making this guess was a fledgling contacted by Montano. She said so because Montano told her that his sire had always wanted a perfectly satisfactory childe. Her logic was: Someone who had been loved would not be so obsessed with this matter. So Lasombra loved Gratiano so much as he was actually making it up for himself. (A narcissistic parent?)
            Just like control freaks are often insecure and fragile, but when not broken, act with seeming confidence and charm

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            • #36
              I seem to recall that in the Gehenna book, Malkav is a man but he has a twin sister who had a strange discipline.


              Co-writer of the upcoming book. Trump and the Illusion of Truth - How obvious lies affects the modern US politics.

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              • #37
                I think it's an interesting idea and I've definitely thought about how it does seem that the orthodox sex of the antediluvians is someone slanted and I've thought about changing it but I do think that people's comments about things like that being apart of Caine's allegorical role as the agrarian destructor of the old hunter-gathering world order and such.

                Ultimately though, I do think that it's definitely a Golden Rule sort of thing that really depends on the preferences of the ST, their players, and their goals for the chronicle ahead.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post
                  In my experience, the people who most vocally espouse that kind of "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" rhetoric are beneficiaries of privilege who don't need to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.

                  So the only people out there are the ones that agree with you or are "privileged" and thus lose credibility.... must be nice to live in an echo chamber.

                  Random side note, where do you really think "privilege" comes from? Most people say you started out in life with money or are of a socially more acceptable heritage, but in truth privilege comes from some one at some point in that family's past getting their act together and making something of themselves and then most crucially having offspring who didn't squander that hard work and if possible made even more head way. Thus a bank account grows over generations into something vast and always available for the family's needs.

                  In the case of heritage the successes of that family line become equated to the race, which means if you have a lot of people of the similar race in the area of course they are going to turn it into PR BS for their culture, every culture with a majority race does this from Asia to Africa to Europe to the Americas. Even primitive cultures do this, there are many examples of tribal names translating as nothing more than "the people", sure there might be other tribes, but they are not quite as "good" or even human as "the people".

                  In the end, when an individual complains about some one else's privilege, all they are actually saying is that no one in their family built anything of lasting value or if they did, their offspring either squandered it or couldn't maintain it through difficult times. But you are right, let's not get hung up on reality when discussing the fantasy world of a TTRPG.


                  Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post
                  Speak for yourself. I find it needless limitation on anyone's imagination to say that established canon is too sacrosanct to alter for one's home games. If someone wants to swap around character genders, replace Chicago's Camarilla with their own homebrew Sabbat city, swap out what clans are in the sects, or throw out the game's Judeo-Christian myth and make vampires the result of an alien virus, good for them. Take the game's lore and make it your own. I haven't liked every fan idea I've read, but I've read tons I found entertaining or thought-provoking, and some I liked so much that I made them canon in my games. If someone wants to stick exclusively to official canon for their games, good for them too. But why they'd think anyone less hung up about official canon would appreciate advice to limit their imagination is beyond me.
                  Are you agreeing with me that everyone should make the game their own or are you disagreeing with me that people with limited imaginations shouldn't saber rattle about the game writers changing their personal creations to better fit the whining peoples personal politics? You are kind of trying to both at the same time and failing to be clear.

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                  • #39
                    This may not be the time or place for this sort of discussion, but I will say that in my opinion Thoth that premise doesn't really take into account the fact that different people of different groups have benefited from wildly different levels of opportunity and suffered varying levels of economic and social persecution & operation.

                    •Everyone can certainly have their own opinion on political matters, but saying that everyone in a position without privelage is there because of some moral family or inability of their ancestors is ignoring pertinent information such as certain groups inability to gain access to quality jobs, quality education, and not having the benefit of several unbroken lines of generational wealth acruing.

                    •Also I think it's pretty clear what they're saying Thoth is that every player should be entitled to use whatever concepts and ideas that they want, without having to constantly argue with canon-purists over the legitimacy of any concept that is obviously already outside of canon.

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                    • #40
                      @pmark you’re being sarcastic, but you do have a point. Caine was the first agrarian farmer. But Zillah was female and it makes sense that she would Embrace some other female childer. After all, she’d probably get lonely after thousands of years with no other girls to talk to.

                      Anyway, it doesn’t matter that much anyway. The genders of most of the Antediluvians are pretty ambiguous and I could always make them female if I really wanted to (or at least convince the person who’s running the game to change them if it’s that important to me). Still, it’s definitely interesting to talk about.


                      “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

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                      • #41
                        LucyRuthven you make some really good points about narcissism.


                        “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

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                        • #42
                          @pmark and you’re also right about Caine hating Lilith because she was the embodiment of female autonomy.

                          Question for anyone who’s reading this: I read in the Dark New England Storyteller’s Vault sourcebook that Caine fell for Zillah, but she didn’t like him back, so he forced the Blood Bond on her. Is that canon or is that just one person’s interpretation? Thanks.


                          “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                            @pmark and you’re also right about Caine hating Lilith because she was the embodiment of female autonomy.

                            Question for anyone who’s reading this: I read in the Dark New England Storyteller’s Vault sourcebook that Caine fell for Zillah, but she didn’t like him back, so he forced the Blood Bond on her. Is that canon or is that just one person’s interpretation? Thanks.
                            In the book of Nod it tells how Caine failed to make Zillah love him so he went to the Crone who taught him how to blood bond her by blood bonding Caine. Its canon. The moral of the Book of Nod is these same troubles will follow each generation, that is why later one of the traditional advice given is don't embrace for love and if you really must make your love a vampire get someone else to do it. Or it will end badly.


                            It is a time for great deeds!

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                            • #44
                              Eldagusto thanks. It’s not really love unless it’s mutual, but I get what they’re saying.


                              “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

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                              • #45
                                Ethryo her name is Malakai. She’s in Beckett’s Jyhad Diary. I don’t know what her Discipline is. Malkav’s was Dementation (Malkavians didn’t lose Dementation and get Dominate instead until the Convention of Thorns).


                                “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

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