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  • #46
    Originally posted by Penelope View Post
    Eldagusto thanks. It’s not really love unless it’s mutual, but I get what they’re saying.
    I'm not Sure Caine even loved her, he's a complicated guy so fitting his dark nature he may have just been infatuated with her and wanted her to love him as he thought he did her.

    Analects of the Third Garden, my favorite Vault product, had a bit of the story be that Zillah was the one who brought Obtenebration to the Get of Caine. Lilith was its greatest master. Caine barricaded her in her room using a level of super strength he was confident she or his other kids wouldn't be able to match. But Obtenebration however was her key.


    It is a time for great deeds!

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    • #47
      Eldagusto wow! Thanks. Told you the night was female 😊.


      Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

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      • #48
        Sorry. I’m stuck inside because of the Corona virus and I’m really bored lol.


        Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Penelope View Post
          Eldagusto wow! Thanks. Told you the night was female 😊.
          Its a great read.

          Analects of the Third Garden

          It has a great idea that the Deluge wasn't a holy rain to smite Caine, but actually Lilith using her mastery of the Abyss to make it rain darkness to flood the world after she learns of Caine's location from Zillah. It posits that Caine revealed her earlier Garden to the Angels and smote it to ruin for being a sanctuary for the Fallen.


          It is a time for great deeds!

          Comment


          • #50
            Thank you!! Imma check it out this weekend.


            Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

            Comment


            • #51
              What if Malkav’s “sister” Malakai is just another identity of Malkav?

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              • #52
                QueenHerla hmmm. Never thought of that.


                Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Just to throw some random thoughts in the mix:

                  Especially Dark Ages pointed out, that with enough age, gender means little to a Vampire.

                  It is totally possible, that many of the antediluvians where actually of the opposite sex than people are imagine them to be, because the traditional attribution of different traits mislead those who heard and told the stories. If someone was depicted as hotheaded and strong, people in the past might have had a hard time to imagen this person as female. If someone was depicted as beautiful and tender, tradition might remember that person as female even if that one was male before the embrace. Even Arikel could easily be a man and even Haqim could originally be a woman.

                  Later generations might have masculinized the names of the antediluvian for political purposes. Maybe to make a point against strong female leaders, as the queens of the courts of love in France, or to fight the growing worshiping of Lilith.

                  It is possible that early vampires indeed avoided to embrace women, because they are the ones who get pregnant, to keep the flock growing.

                  Some of the antediluvians are kind of genderless. [Tzimisce] is usually depicted male, but one of “its” origin stories is about Irad, creating [Tzimisce] artificially and therefore it probably has no gender at all. And even if [Tzimisce] was a man or a woman at one point, it doesn’t mean anything.
                  With [Lasombra] it is kind of the same. His mortal existence is described as “unremarkable”, that could mean someone who never fight in a war, never lead a tribe, never raised “his” voice. That might refer to a male or a female. When people meet [Lasombra] in later years he/she is already a strange creature of darkness.
                  Ennoia might have become traditionaly female over the years to point out her connection to creation and Lilith, while in earlier texts, the Gangrel progenitor was described as male. With the power of protean he/she might even actually have changed his/her gender, to become more and more kind of a deity of Nature.
                  The list goes on and on.

                  Some sources talk about more than the 13 known Antediluvians. It is totally possible that many of them where actually female. Maybe they refused to create clans, because they had mortal children in life. After the embrace they maybe decided not to create more and more monsters, to protect their mortal descendants. A mindset, the original 13 progenitors obviously haven’t had.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Sethos View Post
                    Just to throw some random thoughts in the mix:
                    A good statement, I don't want to offend anyone, but I am confused why somebody want to find out their gender, which is meaningless to creatures of this level. They can change it, which has no more roles, by will. And it is very likely they could become "genderless" (inhuman beautiful or ugly you know) like you say...

                    Originally posted by Sethos View Post
                    Some sources talk about more than the 13 known Antediluvians. It is totally possible that many of them where actually female. Maybe they refused to create clans, because they had mortal children in life. After the embrace they maybe decided not to create more and more monsters, to protect their mortal descendants. A mindset, the original 13 progenitors obviously haven’t had.

                    I wonder how 2nd gens, or caine, select their childers. Are most of Antediluvians or 2nd gens (if some do survive, I mean more than three 2nd gens) very talented or excellent? Or most of their embrace are just a whim? It seems like most Antediluvian do have something big (Arikel is very beautiful and a good artist, Absimiliard is a handsome great hunter, etc.), but are they just brag?

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Rock113 View Post

                      I wonder how 2nd gens, or caine, select their childers. Are most of Antediluvians or 2nd gens (if some do survive, I mean more than three 2nd gens) very talented or excellent? Or most of their embrace are just a whim? It seems like most Antediluvian do have something big (Arikel is very beautiful and a good artist, Absimiliard is a handsome great hunter, etc.), but are they just brag?[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
                      Well the antes seem to be the best that society had to offer. Or so the legend goes. No telling how much of it is true. The second generation are less known for their prowess as mortals.

                      Enoch may have been the actual son of Caine and Irad the son of Enoch (or Caine). It's possible they kept it in the familly.

                      Regardless of the reason of the embrace, Enoch atleast seemed to have been a competent man or became one after his embrace. His epitath was ''the Wise'' afterall. Then there is the tidbit about the tablet of destiny. it was thought to be a chronicle of blood powers, explaining all of Enoch's magics. So the guy might have been a great magician/sorcerer.

                      Zillah seems to have been embraced because of Caine's obsession for her, not for any talents she may have possed.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by blackshade View Post

                        Regardless of the reason of the embrace, Enoch atleast seemed to have been a competent man or became one after his embrace. His epitath was ''the Wise'' afterall. Then there is the tidbit about the tablet of destiny. it was thought to be a chronicle of blood powers, explaining all of Enoch's magics. So the guy might have been a great magician/sorcerer.

                        Zillah seems to have been embraced because of Caine's obsession for her, not for any talents she may have possed.
                        I feel that this isn't entirely straigh logic (I hope this comes out well in English). We have to remember the incredible power that Enoch had and thus if he wants to style himself as wise, who is foolish or alive now to say that he's actually mediocre or even a fool? Its like any other very powerful individual that people don't want to anger and so please with praise.

                        And I could of course be entirely wrong but it seems to me that Caine and the Second Generation were probably not very smart at all given what kind of people were turned into the Third Generation. Thus I don't think that Cainites turned into masterminds until after the Second Generation had fallen and the Third Generation were forced to keep an eye on both each other and also, essentially, keep ahead of their enemies to stay alive.



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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Gurkhal View Post

                          I feel that this isn't entirely straigh logic (I hope this comes out well in English). We have to remember the incredible power that Enoch had and thus if he wants to style himself as wise, who is foolish or alive now to say that he's actually mediocre or even a fool? Its like any other very powerful individual that people don't want to anger and so please with praise.

                          And I could of course be entirely wrong but it seems to me that Caine and the Second Generation were probably not very smart at all given what kind of people were turned into the Third Generation. Thus I don't think that Cainites turned into masterminds until after the Second Generation had fallen and the Third Generation were forced to keep an eye on both each other and also, essentially, keep ahead of their enemies to stay alive.



                          Sure maybe ''the Wise" is just propaganda on his part. But my point stands, he was most likely a competent man. If only because he survived into the modern nights (opinions may differ on his survival). But i dont think you can say they were idiots because they embraced the monsters of the third generation. Most likely there weren't monsters as humans but turned into one after some time. Age corrupts everything. It doesnt matter how good you are, if you live long enough, you will see yourself become a monster. Cliche but true.
                          Last edited by blackshade; 03-19-2020, 12:05 PM.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by blackshade View Post
                            Well the antes seem to be the best that society had to offer. Or so the legend goes. No telling how much of it is true. The second generation are less known for their prowess as mortals.
                            I think one of the reasons is, Caine and 2nd gens may embrace randomly, sometimes, but age eliminated those stupid and unlucky (those captured by Crone or swallowed by Flood, for instance, poor 3rd gens anarch) and only strongest survived, they are the 13 founders we saw today. 2nd gens didn’t last a long time. So this process may be less effective, and they are not as known as their surviving childers

                            But who knows? Maybe 3nd gens are true losers and idiots. Enoch did appear in BJD and said all 3th gens are braggers. (and this has changed the WHOLE metaplot, in older editions including ToJ the 2nd gens are wholly ignored. I expect more details about them)

                            Originally posted by blackshade View Post
                            Sure maybe ''the Wise" is just propaganda on his part. But my point stands, he was most likely a competent man. If only because he survived into the modern nights (opinions may differ on his survival). But i dont think you can say they were idiots because they embraced the monsters of the third generation. Most likely there weren't monsters as humans but turned into one after some time. Age corrupts everything. It doesnt matter how good you are, if you live long enough, you will see yourself become a monster. Cliche but true.
                            An idea: If 2nd gens do survive into the modern nights (Caine is, unquestionable) and are not that smart. They may embrace after the Flood, meaning 2nd or 3th gens methuselahs or elders do exist. But we do not find any evidence

                            I used to have a post concerning this
                            Last edited by Rock113; 03-19-2020, 01:48 PM.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by blackshade View Post
                              Sure maybe ''the Wise" is just propaganda on his part. But my point stands, he was most likely a competent man. If only because he survived into the modern nights (opinions may differ on his survival).
                              Smart, or powerful.

                              Or maybe he was forced to start to think after the Third Generation rose up against him and he had to keep away from revealing his location to them? There are certainly many different ways to look at this.

                              Originally posted by blackshade View Post
                              But i dont think you can say they were idiots because they embraced the monsters of the third generation. Most likely there weren't monsters as humans but turned into one after some time. Age corrupts everything. It doesnt matter how good you are, if you live long enough, you will see yourself become a monster. Cliche but true.
                              I don't think they were per necessity or even likely idiots, as in drooling fools who can't understand or manage anything but the most basic things.

                              But that don't mean they are some wise men or masterminds. The important part I want to stress is that at the time when the Third Generation was sired and when it rose up against the Second Generation, I don't think that the Second Generation had been in a position where they really needed to push themselves to the limit or challenge themselves. Caine and the Second Generation seems to me to have been pretty much in control and no reason for them to get sharp and then sharper still, as Cainites, in for example the Dark Ages, must constantly seek if to improve if they are to survive.

                              Thus it could be that the Second Generation through hard and bitter experiences has become very mentally gifted. But before the rebellion of the Third Generation, I don't think they were particularly good at striking people into awe with their wisdom or intelligence.

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                              • #60
                                blackshade I read somewhere that Zillah was a mage, but that might’ve been a fan supplement. I do remember reading in the Black Hand book that after the Second City was destroyed Zillah was transformed into a statue of a beautiful maiden (probably not a literal maiden, but still) who weeps tears of Vitae that the members of the Black Hand drink as part of their initiation. Anyway, this shows that Zillah was probably really powerful back when she was still an active member of the Second Generaton.


                                Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

                                Comment

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