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  • #61
    Originally posted by Penelope View Post
    blackshade I read somewhere that Zillah was a mage, but that might’ve been a fan supplement. I do remember reading in the Black Hand book that after the Second City was destroyed Zillah was transformed into a statue of a beautiful maiden (probably not a literal maiden, but still) who weeps tears of Vitae that the members of the Black Hand drink as part of their initiation. Anyway, this shows that Zillah was probably really powerful back when she was still an active member of the Second Generaton.

    I am sure she was. But the reason of her embrace may have not been about her talents but about Caine's infatuation of her.

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    • #62
      Probably

      He forced her to accept the Blood Bond. Ewwww. And that’s an understatement.

      Even her nickname in the Book of Nod was Zillah the Fair...


      Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

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      • #63
        Caine was (and probably still is) a self serving bastard. Not that different from his grandchildren.

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        • #64
          I've always been thinking; With how absurdly powerful 3rd gens are in comparison to 4th gens, how did the 3rds beat the 2nd?


          For ease of reference: "VTM" means every edition that isn't V5, because V5... it's a very different product, and I don't want to write "Pre-V5" because that's lame and I'm lazy.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
            I've always been thinking; With how absurdly powerful 3rd gens are in comparison to 4th gens, how did the 3rds beat the 2nd?

            Strength in numbers. A pack of wolves will bring down a lion. Element of surprise probably played a role and the second generation were most likely a few thousands years old when they were destroyed. Powerful but not the blood gods the third gens became after 10,000 years of existence.

            Then there is the theory that the second gen and third gen were equal in potential untill Caine cursed the third generation after their rebellion and started the whole weakening of the blood thing. So they might have been equal in potential of the blood.
            Last edited by blackshade; 03-19-2020, 04:53 PM.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by blackshade View Post


              Strength in numbers. A pack of wolves will bring down a lion. Element of surprise probably played a role and the second generation were most likely a few thousands years old when they were destroyed. Powerful but not the blood gods the third gens became after 10,000 years of existence.

              Then there is the theory that the second gen and third gen were equal in potential untill Caine cursed the third generation after their rebellion and started the whole weakening of the blood thing. so they might have been equal in those days.
              The tricky thing about Cain and the 2nd Generations vs. the 3rd Generations is the question about default power scale. Disciplines go ranks 1 thru 10, but what happens with Caine or the 2nd gens? Do they have discipline rank 11 when rank 10 is routinely classified as "Plot Device" or does the bump in power mean that they have access to something completely different like how hedge magic or Thaumaturgy is a pale shadow to the True Magic of mages.

              A way this could go is the old idea that Exalted was pre-history setting for WoD, which would make Cain an Abyssal Exalted and the various 2nd and 3rd Gens are actually Half-Castes who bred true over time. Using second edition Exalted as a base line you can really see the mechanical differences in say an Essence 5 Abyssal and a 3rd generation weakling Cainite.

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              • #67
                It's known that when Caine passed down the clan curses he also passed the weakening of the blood for each generation past 3rd. So technically the 3rd generation has the same power potential as the 2nd. Discipline levels would still be 10 for the 2nd and Caine. The difference is they have far greater experience as vampires to be able to do a lot more than what the 3rd can do with "plot device" abilities. Caine, being hundreds of thousands of years older than even the 2nd gens, is said to be able to control the blood so well he can shut down disciplines being used around him and create new disciplines on the fly.

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                • #68
                  Unless you are in a state of Golconda, which means regardless of generation you can rank 10 in everything, which means the weakening blood is not an absolute.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Thoth View Post
                    Unless you are in a state of Golconda, which means regardless of generation you can rank 10 in everything, which means the weakening blood is not an absolute.
                    I wonder if anybody do achieve this. Most are just legends (one 5th gens toreador, etc.). IRRC there is no clear evidence, like one appeared and said "hey I achieve Golconda, die you Ancients!", and used his level 10 disciplines to crush down or impress a lot of cainites

                    Gehenna said, only elder having Golconda can resist level 10 diciplines, If such creatures do exist

                    *About vampires who did acheive Golconda, don't say Aziz in Cairo by Night, irrc he acheived this "artificially" by having a Djinn's blood (and why spirits have blood?!)
                    **Additonally, I find that they always use "she" as an example, in disciplines or any other rules. "If she uses it, roll X+X (Diff X), etc.". Another interesting thing
                    Last edited by Rock113; 03-19-2020, 10:16 PM.

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                    • #70
                      Thoth cool. I forgot Golconda has mechanical benefits too.

                      Rock113 could you remind me in like one or two sentences who Aziz is and why he has Djinn blood. I actually do own CbN, but I’m lazy and don’t feel like digging all through my DTRPG library to find the answer lol. Thanks 😊.


                      Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Kael03 View Post
                        It's known that when Caine passed down the clan curses he also passed the weakening of the blood for each generation past 3rd. So technically the 3rd generation has the same power potential as the 2nd. Discipline levels would still be 10 for the 2nd and Caine. The difference is they have far greater experience as vampires to be able to do a lot more than what the 3rd can do with "plot device" abilities. Caine, being hundreds of thousands of years older than even the 2nd gens, is said to be able to control the blood so well he can shut down disciplines being used around him and create new disciplines on the fly.
                        Where was this mentioned? I know about the passing of the blood curses, but the weakening of the blood escaped me.

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                        • #72
                          Rock113 I did look Aziz up in CbN. It looks like one of his ancestors was a djinn, which makes sense since the djinn are partially materialized spirits.


                          Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
                            I wonder if anybody do achieve this. Most are just legends (one 5th gens toreador, etc.).
                            This Toreador is Calida, only appeared in Encyclopaedia Vampirica. Her statement seems to be more reliable, but also flies in the air. My point still stands, no evidence shows someone had achieved Golconda.

                            Some old school fans I met used to have a talk with this, using “fairy tales” to describe it. It is even more unbelievable than wan gui’s Dâh (after all we do have some guys attain this)

                            Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                            Rock113 I did look Aziz up in CbN. It looks like one of his ancestors was a djinn, which makes sense since the djinn are partially materialized spirits.
                            Poor djinn, vampirism will ruin everything, including his descendants’ spiritual bonds (just like kinfolk)
                            Last edited by Rock113; 03-21-2020, 08:19 AM.

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                            • #74
                              As a asides, I think there is some evidence that Troile is older than Sutekh. According to the book of Nod, her diablerie of Brujah brought down the second city. And most takes seem to assume that she took him down in a fight, which is not a neonate thing to do. She might have been around since the first city.

                              Sutekh on the other hand was a really late embrace, but one we have a lot of information about, seeing as there is close mortal family of his extant as both Kine and Kindred, and we have first hand accounts of his early life and neonate nights.
                              Last edited by Trollroot; 03-21-2020, 08:32 AM.

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                              • #75
                                Troile, if they existed, was embraced shortly after the flood by all accounts. However, they were a couple thousand years old by the time they diablerized Brujah.

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