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  • #76
    Trollroot I heard somewhere that Sutekh wasn’t one of the original Antes. His Sire Typhon Embraced both him and Osiris in predynastic Egypt and then Sutekh Diablerized them (“them” meaning Typhon).

    Are you sure about Troile? I thought I read in V:tDA20 that Troile Diablerized Ilyes (the founder of the True Brujah) really late, around the time of Carthage.

    Thanks 😊. I just find this stuff fascinating.


    Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

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    • #77
      Menele is a direct childe of Troile and was embraced around 1200 BC. Carthage was founded around 814 bc. Difference of about 400 years. Troile had been 3rd gen for at least that long.

      Troile had supposedly destroyed Ilyes during the time of the Second City, which was founded a little while (can't find the timeframe) after the flood.

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      • #78
        Where does Troiles embrace date from the wiki come from? it says 3000 bc. Maybe it's wrong but that woud make her the youngest ante after Augustus and Tremere.

        Set's embrace date and even generation is reallly up for debate. Some consider him a fourth gen that ate his way to third but he might aswell be the first vampire. Caine and Abel's story in the bible is based on the egyptian story of Set and Osiris.

        Also good to keep in mind, he is considered to be one of the most powerful antediluvians. So his embrace date of 5000 bc is a bit suspect. Unless he got juiced up through some other means (looking at you apep!)
        Last edited by blackshade; 03-21-2020, 02:19 PM.

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        • #79
          Okay. I always figured Menele started as Fifth Gen and then Diablerized an unknown Fourth Gen True Brujah at the same time as Troile Diablerized Ilyes.


          Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

          Comment


          • #80
            Set was the first Vampire, stop with the silly Caine myths.


            For ease of reference: "VTM" means every edition that isn't V5, because V5... it's a very different product, and I don't want to write "Pre-V5" because that's lame and I'm lazy.

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            • #81
              MyWifeIsScary 😂😂😂


              Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                Ethryo her name is Malakai. She’s in Beckett’s Jyhad Diary. I don’t know what her Discipline is. Malkav’s was Dementation (Malkavians didn’t lose Dementation and get Dominate instead until the Convention of Thorns).

                I think she had a discipline called Phantasm which caused either illuisons or warped reality dont remember which

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                  Trollroot I heard somewhere that Sutekh wasn’t one of the original Antes. His Sire Typhon Embraced both him and Osiris in predynastic Egypt and then Sutekh Diablerized them (“them” meaning Typhon).

                  Are you sure about Troile? I thought I read in V:tDA20 that Troile Diablerized Ilyes (the founder of the True Brujah) really late, around the time of Carthage.

                  Thanks 😊. I just find this stuff fascinating.
                  Latest info given, I think in the True Black Hand Book or wait it was the Bloodlines book, it revealed Troile may not have diablerized Ilyes, she may have just had a falling out with him and then diablerized one of the 2nd gen. This is interesting because it opens up options that Ilyes could have hopped into the future like the Gehenna Scenario, and maybe he embraced some Trujah after his supposed death.


                  It is a time for great deeds!

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                  • #84
                    Eldagusto interesting. Thanks!


                    Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Just read Analects of the Third Garden. Of the eleven Antediluvians discussed, 6 are female and 5 are male.


                      Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                        Trollroot I heard somewhere that Sutekh wasn’t one of the original Antes. His Sire Typhon Embraced both him and Osiris in predynastic Egypt and then Sutekh Diablerized them (“them” meaning Typhon).

                        Are you sure about Troile? I thought I read in V:tDA20 that Troile Diablerized Ilyes (the founder of the True Brujah) really late, around the time of Carthage.

                        Thanks 😊. I just find this stuff fascinating.
                        Thanks for asking I'm going to go through my source materials and check it out when I have the opportunity, but here is how I remember it:

                        Typhon sired Osiris, who sired Khetamon. Who would later take the name of his sire Osiris and start the bloodline of that name. Set who was Osiris mortal brother was jealous and went off into the western desert. He came back embraced and with a serious snake issue. We have several accounts of this, including from Sets mortal family and kine who were there.

                        The kine, Mestha, dates the events at 3000 BC. His account is not perfect, and contains some anachronisms such as references to chariots. But in general he has no reason to lie, and his tale fits well with archeological evidence such as his sons participation in the wars to unify Upper and Lower Egypt. The Setites place the event 2000 years earlier, but their tale includes things like the mortal Set and Osiris debating dividing Upper and Lower Egypt between them, which would only make sense 2000 years later. Also the Setites have reason to lie and are low on even the stunted trustworthiness scale of the Kindred.

                        (Out of character I think there is indication that the same author that got 5000 BC embrace date confused with 5000 years old in the case of Baba Yaga also worked on the Mummy book.)

                        Now in relation to Troile this does become interesting. In 1st ed there were definite hints that Typhon was an alias of Brujah, who embraced Osiris. There were some forum speculation way back that the kind of person Typhon seemed to be gave some hints as to why Troile decided to end him.

                        If this was the case, and we go by the 3000 BC date, that is the earliest time Troile could have diablerized Brujah. (And it might be why Typhon never returned for his Childe Osiris) However, in "Cairo by Night" this was changed to indicate that it was Troile who embraced Osiris. In which case Troile as an Antediluvian is certainly older, probably far older than Set, Osiris and Horus. (Note though that I do not think Osiris generation has ever been listed for definite) And I think we can be pretty certain that Brujah himself never saw or thought of Carthage. He met Final Death long, long before. The Trujah are not Time Lords.

                        Troile must in all cases be much older than Carthage. And while it is possible that Menele committed diablerie, we have no indication of it. And if we start to assume diablerie with no actual indication of it, we kind of lose generation as a source of information.

                        It is also a feature of all the accounts that Osiris and Set had different sires.

                        I don't see how an embrace date of 3000 BC can be right for Troile in any case unless you put the Second City really much later in history than generally believed. I think indications are that Troile was one of the eldest and scariest of the Fourth Generation.

                        Now in my headcanon, the best way to explain things with Set is that there were already a "Clan of Faith" and that Set did an Augustus Giovanni on it. This does explain references to the clan which are far older than Set. (We actually have more information on Sets mortal days than on Tremeres, I think) And maybe Set was originally embraced as a Gangrel. Famous warrior went into one of the harshest terrains on earth, survives, comes out with animal features. Says Gangrel. Also, the Tlacique, prehaps the oldest Setite line have Protean rather than Serpentis. (Setites also date the final development of Serpentis to about 1000 BC)

                        blackshade I suspect Set ate an Antediluvian going by the alias or name of Apep and that his tales of being the most powerful, not actually a Cainite etc are to discourage would-be diablerists.
                        Last edited by Trollroot; 04-13-2020, 07:12 PM.

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                        • #87
                          Fascinating! Thanks.


                          Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            vampires, I think I am reiterating, are beyond gender. They reproduce Asexually. Gender means nothing unless it means food.

                            Antis are old enough not to think human, gender. Hunger.

                            Take XX was more uncommon then YX then. Do you take for yours the rarest? Or do you breed food? (Cain is a asshole so 1/3 were female when that actually mattered)

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Pittmonkey View Post
                              vampires, I think I am reiterating, are beyond gender. They reproduce Asexually.
                              What gender a person identifies as, is not tied to how one reproduces. These two sentences have basically nothing to do with each other.

                              Originally posted by Pittmonkey View Post
                              Gender means nothing unless it means food.
                              My Malkavian has a 3DS, on which he plays Yoshi's Woolly World. He generally plays it when circumstances force him to wait around. It does not in any way get him food.

                              ​Not everything in life is going to be about how you get your next meal.

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                              • #90
                                To an Antidiluvian their gender would be approximately as important as their eye colour ie basically meaningless beyond trivia

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