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  • Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
    Considering they come from the Middle East most of them should be Arabic.

    Not arabic, but Mesopotanina, babylonian, Sumerian etc.


    This space for rent.

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    • Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
      Considering they come from the Middle East most of them should be Arabic.
      Arabs as a people can be traced back to the ninth century BC. Some theories about the origin of the Marsh Arabs in southern Iraq go back further. Before them, there were Mitanni, Elamites, Assyrians etc, all the way back to the Sumerians about 3500 BC.

      Most of the Antediluvians are fifteen thousand years old or more. No people we know today was around back then, there were very different peoples. And most of them would not look much like the groups we know today. According to the stories the Antediluvians were embraced from many peoples and lands. There is a line in BJD that may be taken as Troile being of the Ibromarusians, but you have to squint quite hard through abject nonsense there. I'd guess the majority were Basal Eurasians or Proto-Natufian.

      Its an interesting area to speculate on though.

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      • Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
        Considering they come from the Middle East most of them should be Arabic.
        They came from the Fertile Crescent, which is in Africa.

        They also come from a pre-Arabian, even pre-Sumerian civilization. They could be any race/gender you want.

        The only canon genders, because they've been encountered in written history within the past millennium, are Saulot, Capadocious, Lasombra, Zapathazura, and Tzimisce were male when they "died".

        Clan histories state that Ilyes was male, Troile was unknown. Ennoia in gangrel history was female. Arikel was female. Ventru was male. Malkav was male according to the Plague-Bride's biography. Absimiliard is certainly male according to all accounts. Set was male, we even have someone that can confirm that with Keminitiri. And Haqim is male according to all histories.

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        • Originally posted by Kael03 View Post

          They came from the Fertile Crescent, which is in Africa.
          What? No! It's in Mesopotamia/Middle East.

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          • [Ventru] is one of the simplest to write as having been female. If I remember correctly, nobody remembers having met them, not even their childer, or they're not talking about it.

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            • -As said, the fertile cresent is in the middle east. Humanity came from sub-saharan africa, but civilization came from the middle east (and also independently sprouted from the other "cradles of civilisation"; While Sub saharan Africa certainly had it's empires and civilisations, the only place african place considered a cradle is the Nile...)

              -Ethnic groups have moved around the world. Does this mean equatorial pale people? No. But apparently central asia had people with red hair, and the german stereotype was once 'lazy'. Before the Yamato people conquered Japan, it was populated with people who looked like the Ainu (who look more like whites than east asians). People moved around a lot, the time between the fall of Rome and what most consider the medieval period was even called the migration period. Nevermind the modern ethnic diversity of the middle east being more than just 'arabs', the antideluvian middle east likely had different people. (But again, climate wise, probably some tan-brown skin tones)

              -Caine Traveled a lot. The book of nod should be taken with a grain of salt because vampires lie a lot.

              -There is one "Antideluvian" who is probably trans, Brujah the second (who allegedly ate the first). Honestly, I think this is quite the negative interpretation of trans people (Moloch isn't a great bed-buddy, and it doesn't speak well to have the one trans anti found the clan with that particular weakness) I don't know if the original intent was intended progressive or reactionary.

              -Mostly male Antediluvians makes sense given the context of the time: If women don't have a place to shine, they won't be embraced. Why embrace a maybe-talented woman instead of a man good at his job? Being "progressive" and imaging that ancient society is just as it is now wouldn't be progressive at all (Unless you imagine that before the flood we were traversing stars and stuff like that; Given everyone lived to about 900, could be so)


              Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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              • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                -Ethnic groups have moved around the world. Does this mean equatorial pale people? No. But apparently central asia had people with red hair, and the german stereotype was once 'lazy'. Before the Yamato people conquered Japan, it was populated with people who looked like the Ainu (who look more like whites than east asians). People moved around a lot, the time between the fall of Rome and what most consider the medieval period was even called the migration period. Nevermind the modern ethnic diversity of the middle east being more than just 'arabs', the antideluvian middle east likely had different people. (But again, climate wise, probably some tan-brown skin tones)
                I made a separate thread for this, it is interesting. Note that there were several peoples who were deeply diverged from the other peoples of the time and are extinct today.

                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                -There is one "Antideluvian" who is probably trans, Brujah the second (who allegedly ate the first). Honestly, I think this is quite the negative interpretation of trans people (Moloch isn't a great bed-buddy, and it doesn't speak well to have the one trans anti found the clan with that particular weakness) I don't know if the original intent was intended progressive or reactionary.
                As far as I remember it, Brujah was male and was diablerized by Troile who was female. Probably. I don't think gender were than important to Antediluvians.

                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                -Mostly male Antediluvians makes sense given the context of the time: If women don't have a place to shine, they won't be embraced. Why embrace a maybe-talented woman instead of a man good at his job? Being "progressive" and imaging that ancient society is just as it is now wouldn't be progressive at all (Unless you imagine that before the flood we were traversing stars and stuff like that; Given everyone lived to about 900, could be so)
                Well... that might be said to be the period when Set was embraced, but most Antes would predate even that period.

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                • Saulot i always represented as female, because the suffix "ot" is generally feminine in middle eastern languages, based on my limited past experience, but that's a preference i adopted from back in my teenage years for whatever. Have also brought up the Assamite founder as female, apocryphal antediluvians, antediluvians who claimed to have founded multiple clans and some other stuff.
                  Last edited by Baaldam; 07-31-2020, 09:20 PM.

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                  • Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                    Saulot i always represented as female, because the suffix "ot" is generally feminine in middle eastern languages, based on my limited past experience, but that's a preference i adopted from back in my teenage years for whatever. Have also brought up the Assamite founder as female, apocryphal antediluvians, antediluvians who claimed to have founded multiple clans and some other stuff.
                    So, in other words, she is the Lady of Saulot?

                    In regards to the potential patriarchy of early agrarian villages in the Middle East, it may not matter. For vampires of that time period, the embrace may be much more personal than choosing someone of high status. You embrace someone that you like, that you want to be your companion, whose qualities you want to last longer than a human lifetime. In those days there was no need to worry about the power of your potential childe, or their ability to preserve the Masquerade. Anyone that a 2nd generation vampire embraces becomes a god or goddess.

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                    • Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
                      As far as I remember it, Brujah was male and was diablerized by Troile who was female. Probably. I don't think gender were than important to Antediluvians.
                      That'd be fine if not for the many, many sources citing Troile as male. At first when I didn't know anything, I thought triole was described female in a few books because an author didn't want a gay ante from the moloch thing. Now I see the the confusion as one of ancient sources deciding to report Triole's sex or Triole's gender. (or perhaps so the T's could steal the G's thunder)

                      I don't think vampires being beyond gender is an ancient thing, I think it's an ancillae and most neonates thing. Quite frankly if me and my Wife switched gender tomorrow we'd have a lot of explaining to do, but we wouldn't care in the longrun. but gender is a very, very big deal to people with Disphoria, and it seems like a big deal to Triole.


                      Well... that might be said to be the period when Set was embraced, but most Antes would predate even that period.
                      Hunters are more fitting of the vampire state than gatherers. That said, in the urban environment of a first city, with all the things old cities brought and considering the Caine/Enoch leadership... Yeah, male embraces would've been the natural order of the day.


                      Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                      • Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post

                        So, in other words, she is the Lady of Saulot?
                        More like Saulot being the feminine variant of Saul, actually. And kindred missing that sort of like western audiences missing Ariel is supposed to be a male hebrew name.
                        If memory tricks me not, it was also inspired by the image beside the "Saulot's Words" fragment in the book of Nod seeming to be of a female (and consistent with the words at that) reinforcing the idea.

                        Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
                        In regards to the potential patriarchy of early agrarian villages in the Middle East, it may not matter. For vampires of that time period, the embrace may be much more personal than choosing someone of high status. You embrace someone that you like, that you want to be your companion, whose qualities you want to last longer than a human lifetime. In those days there was no need to worry about the power of your potential childe, or their ability to preserve the Masquerade. Anyone that a 2nd generation vampire embraces becomes a god or goddess.
                        Very true. But then in my version of the game there is no 1st or 2nd generations (mechanically speaking at least).
                        The idea of the generations of cainites is a falacious myth spread by the Cappadocian bloodline in the proccess of becoming the premier chroniclers/lorekeepers of western kindred society in the middle ages.

                        Among other things. Let's just say i have a very idiosyncratic take of the first nights of the kindred "race" in my chronicles.

                        Like "Generation" actually working somewhat more like Dharma in KotE or BP in Requiem, until an Old One or angry deity decided to curse the undead with mostly static power. Except for those who reach such deep enlightnement it let's them break away with the "chains of blood".

                        Everything tops at level 9 - and then there are those who transcend and develop through their own personal merits the capacity to go farther and develop ultimate expressions (level 10) of their power. In fact for a number of years i have modeled my take of "Antediluvians" on the "Ultimate Purviews" and some of God-Tier mechanics of Scion.
                        Last edited by Baaldam; 08-01-2020, 10:54 AM.

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                        • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                          That'd be fine if not for the many, many sources citing Troile as male. At first when I didn't know anything, I thought triole was described female in a few books because an author didn't want a gay ante from the moloch thing. Now I see the the confusion as one of ancient sources deciding to report Triole's sex or Triole's gender. (or perhaps so the T's could steal the G's thunder)

                          I don't think vampires being beyond gender is an ancient thing, I think it's an ancillae and most neonates thing. Quite frankly if me and my Wife switched gender tomorrow we'd have a lot of explaining to do, but we wouldn't care in the longrun. but gender is a very, very big deal to people with Disphoria, and it seems like a big deal to Triole.
                          Troile. Not Triole. I'd be interested in where you got the bits about gender being important to Troile. If someones got Presence 10 and people are still confused about what gender they are, I would think they did not give much of a shit about gender.

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                          • Well there's that whole moloch/Cathage episode.
                            You also need to consider that;
                            Troile's enemies also have 10 presence
                            and
                            The Brujah Clan weakness must apply to Troile too, and there must be something Triole's angry about to stem that weakness.


                            Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                            • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                              Troile's enemies also have 10 presence
                              Do they?

                              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                              The Brujah Clan weakness must apply to Troile too, and there must be something Triole's angry about to stem that weakness.
                              I don't get what this has to do with Troile's gender identity.

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                              • Why do you even care....that said given that vampires usually embrace outstanding mortals, im actually surprised there are ANY female antedeluvians, given that their societies were highly patriarchal and females were basicly birth machines, meaning women had no real chance of standing out to begin with. We talk a time when females were treated like cattle - why would one embrace a cow? exactly, they wouldnt.
                                So if a 2nd gen embraced a female it would either be because of love, or pure accident.

                                i also wouldnt call ennoia a seductress.

                                And Arikel...well look at ancient societies. Women that DID stand out were usually having lots of power by either, being a religious figure (high shaman or druid with say the celts) or indeed seductresses that used men as proxy by seducing them. Andf the latter happened pretty often throughout history, we see that very impressively with charlemagne the great and historians agree that nothing set back womens power in politics more than the ban of mistresses at royal courts as this was the only way women of that time could gain political power

                                i am also against the idea to force 21st century ideology in a game about millenia old creatures. kainites are very bad at going with the time, they are static creatures clinging on to the time they lied in in an ever changing world. And by far most kainites of power are those of old, and the old kainites grew up almost exclusively in patriarchal societies.

                                That said, vampires are already eerily egaliterian given that undeath erases all sex differences for physical power and disciplines are great equalisiers of power, so kainites cared less about sex than their mortal counterparts, so ofc female vampires can be very high up in kainite society - and always have been. Indeed in the society game, influence counts more than anything and there presence, dominate and auspex are great disciplines to aid the politicing. meanwhile seduction wont get you far in kainite society. It can however be a great asset to gain control over mortal society to back up your claims in kainite society
                                Last edited by Orkar; 08-04-2020, 02:05 AM.

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