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Humanity in Antediluvians

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  • blackshade
    started a topic Humanity in Antediluvians

    Humanity in Antediluvians

    Do you guys think it's possible for a 10,000 year old vampire to still have some humanity left in them? Are all antes unredeemable monsters or is some good left in some of them?

    I am sure most of them (if not all of them) would be alien to us in their thinking or morality but i still wonder which antes could be considered to be somewhat humane? Maybe a sense of honor or a certain code they may follow? Perhaps a person they care about despite all their cruelty?

    I am basically looking for any redeeming qualities that binds them to humanity and shows they are not completete savages.


  • AnubisXy
    replied
    I think it really depends on your take on the Antediluvians. If they're the Blood Gods of yore who will rise up, devour their progeny and rule over the world then they probably would not have Humanity or at least not very high Humanity.

    Leave a comment:


  • CajunKhan
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    OTOH
    There are some unanswered questions I have about antes and humanity.
    • The biggest is long-term torpor and keeping or re-establishing touchstones.
    • It's unclear how you buy new convictions, or change the ones you have.
    • Tenets make sense within a single chronicle, for those pcs. In a metaplot setting, it's not clear how they work. Are there different sets of tenets for different groups of npcs, or do they all adhere to the same set?
    I've always interpreted the Tenet system to mean that each campaign effectively takes place in an alternate timeline.

    In one campaign, the tenets are similar to conventional human morality, and every vampire in the world suffers depending on how well they hold onto it. The Sabbat,if they exist in that timeline, are all visibly well on their way to becoming wights, and it's just a question of whether their constant warfare or wassail will get them first.

    In another campaign, the Sabbat is more or less correct, and the Tenets all vampires must hold onto are in line with Path of the Feral Heart. In that timeline, vampires really are fools for attempting to hold onto their humanity. This campaign might be about a pack of Sabbat infiltrators, and what those infiltrators find when they infiltrate a Cammy city is pathetic and disgusting. A bunch of emos whining about their humanity while visibly ill and trembling and looking like late-stage cancer or AIDS victims from their closeness to wassail as they attempt to hold onto emotions and attachments that are completely antithetical to their new species.

    Regardless of what tenets the ST picks, all vampires in that private timeline must follow them or fall to the beast. Though a game with Feral Heart tenets would probably call it something else. In such a game, you aspire to be a cunning and aware predator. Perhaps in such a game, you don't fall to the Beast, you fall to the Child. The Child being the part of you that wants to eat to gluttony and smash everything that annoys you, with none of the foresight and cunning a magnificent predator uses to avoid acts of self-destructive stupidity. Such vampires don't attempt to hold onto "humanity", they attempt to hold onto "Adulthood", with "Adulthood" being the distance from behaving like an adult, experienced wolf, and behaving like any newborn.
    Last edited by CajunKhan; 03-21-2020, 07:10 PM.

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  • LucyRuthven
    replied
    Some readers have been moved by Fatima and Haqim in the Gehanna novel. In that novel, Haqim rose as the final night is nigh, but he basically killed those who were not worthy of his family, and when Fatima bravely told him her faiths, he even helped her resisting the Withering. Caine himself in that novel was also portrayed not negative (I would say, pretty much positive for a WoD story) So you see, ancients, if you want to, can be made better than eating everything bastards, after all, your story belongs to your group. If a 3rd.gen with humanity is what you need, don't care whether he's long dead or evil in the canon.

    Btw, one typical eating everything bastard - the Lasombra Antediluvian, I always think that he actually loved his progenies in a twisted way, and his clan had been repeating his fall (loved a childe who they Embraced exactly because of strong ambition and cunning, and finally got turned on to absolutely no-one's surprise) for generations.

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  • Moirdryd
    replied
    Yes, some of the Antediluvian could well be on what ever the precursor to Via Humanitas was, as they are artificial rigid constructs to hold back the Beast and some of their apparent actions from the First Nights shows that at least a few may well be maintaining that Road.

    Leave a comment:


  • Taggie
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    Ehhhh, they didn't abandon Paths so much as Humanity and Paths are now combined.

    You can have a Humanity score with the Conviction, "Never suffer a fool to live."


    which ruins Humanity imho, Paths and Roads, humanity included, have a core idea they are formed about, that thing that holds the beast back, that rigid, unbending code you have to hold to or descend to bestial madness, without that they are meaningless, and may as well not be in the game.

    Leave a comment:


  • Magus
    replied
    There are Methuselahs with Humanity and Roads. With the Antediluvians it would similar, but in my opinion there no humanity or roads in them. I think in the Antediluvians as primordial and inhumans blood gods, forces of destruction that only can comprehend the world in their vision of monsters as a place full of blood and tools and nothing more. That is the price of their divine power.

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  • Reasor
    replied
    The Salubri NPC who appears in the Jerusalem chapter of Beckett's Jyhad Diary claims that Antes have descended into and then rose back up from wassail more than once, as a way of suggesting that the "Ashur" who created the Baali could have been any of them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nosimplehiway
    replied
    Given the flexibility of a V5 environment, Antes' Humanity are fairly simple to setup.

    Tenets are set for each chronicle at the start. Assuming you are playing an all third and fourth gen game, your group would choose tenets appropriate for that particular groups of pcs.

    Examples:
    "All beings (including gods) must fulfill only their own dharma, and no others."
    "The powerful have earned the right to rule the weak."
    "You will be judged by the quality of your offspring"
    "Exert power subtly most of the time; it will be more impactful when flagrant."
    "Survive at all cost."


    Convictions are set for each character. While the term highlights them as an extra requirement placed on the pc, they're also a sort of free-pass to break a tenet. While most STs will forbid a Conviction which is too broad or self-serving, a chronicle involving Ante pcs would be the perfect place to allow sneaky, legalistic convictions. It even makes sense in the setting. A vampire with the Conviction of "Never hurt anyone. Ever." isn't likely to last a year, let alone survive millennia.

    Examples:
    "Improvement without change is impossible."
    "You are responsible for your family, and those they rule. Their virtues and sins become your own. Rule them well."
    "Prey animals know when to flee danger. If you love someone, frighten them to keep them safe."
    "Pursue <insert a personal obsession> at all cost."
    "Have agents among every faction. That way, no matter who wins, you win."


    Touchstones are a bit thornier. There is a natural tendency to assume touchstones are people the vampire likes and admires. Nonsense. They just have to be a human, and represent one of the pc's convictions. That's it. You can have a touchstone that represents a conviction in the breach, or that represents such an alien conviction that it would be hard to describe the relationship.

    There are a few ways in which the role of a touchstone can be endangered.
    1. Something seriously bad happens to them. This is most grievous if it is caused by the vampire, directly or indirectly. Normal misfortune (job loss, disease, etc.) may or may not count, per the ST.
    2. The touchstone changes in a way the vampire does not approve, especially if the change is in contradiction of the conviction they represent.
    3. When they are killed or embraced. If a touchstone dies in a natural way, the vampire can usually replace them with a new one.
    Note there are a lot of loopholes and grey areas here. ("here", btw, is V5 p240)
    1. "Something bad" only applies to the touchstone, not those around them. A vampire could be the patron of a mortal warlord who rapes, pillages, and burns their way from Kamchatka to the Pyrenees. As long as the touchstone remains unharmed, they remain a touchstone, even if they stand atop a pile of bodies.
    2. "Change" is fine, really. As long as it is in a way the touchstone likes, the vampire approves of, and it doesn't contradict the conviction.
    3. Antes have all had lots and lots of touchstones. Each has likely had thousands. People die. It happens. In fact, being reminded of this might be the whole point of touchstones. Wise Antes will keep a retinue of touchstone understudies waiting in the wings.

    Examples:
    The mortal who cleans and maintains your haven.
    The high priest of the cult you set up to provide worship.
    The perv with the internet ad who wanted to be locked in a cell forever.
    The serial killer who you follow the way mortals follow their favorite tv show.
    The scholar who is at the forefront of your favorite field.
    The scion of the aristocratic family you patronize.
    The mortal who beat you in a game of chess.
    The most beautiful person you know.
    The leader of the opposition in parliament.


    Experience Costs (and other purely meta strategies) related to Humanity can be more forgiving to the very powerful. New rating x10 is awfully steep for a neonate. For a being who can expect to live ten thousand years, it is less onerous. Assuming you pick up an xp or two every decade, have lenient tenets and convictions, and generally behave yourself, you should be fine. Always keep a reserve of 30 xp on hand. If your humanity reaches 2, stop what you are doing, shut down your operations, and move to a new place. Devote yourself to your alien morality for a few years, then slowly reenter the Jyhad. Once you regain the xp pool, you're good.

    OTOH
    There are some unanswered questions I have about antes and humanity.
    • The biggest is long-term torpor and keeping or re-establishing touchstones.
    • It's unclear how you buy new convictions, or change the ones you have.
    • Tenets make sense within a single chronicle, for those pcs. In a metaplot setting, it's not clear how they work. Are there different sets of tenets for different groups of npcs, or do they all adhere to the same set?

    Leave a comment:


  • Kael03
    replied
    There is no way that they can be undead for that long and still maintain a delusion that they are human to keep the beast in check. They will surely be on Paths if they are awake.

    And, as Ctphillips said, they are from a vastly different era. When they were embraced they openly acknowledged they were monsters that fed on humans.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
    They must be on paths. In fact, the abandonment of paths by the company has bothered me since the beginning because it creates a plot hole with respect to the Antes. There is no no nooo way they've kept any humanity that long. Either they are on paths or they are all wights.
    Ehhhh, they didn't abandon Paths so much as Humanity and Paths are now combined.

    You can have a Humanity score with the Conviction, "Never suffer a fool to live."

    Leave a comment:


  • Pleiades
    replied
    Originally posted by blackshade View Post
    Do you guys think it's possible for a 10,000 year old vampire to still have some humanity left in them? Are all antes unredeemable monsters or is some good left in some of them?
    man, your questions are so loaded, it's a pain trying to answer

    in the new edition, Antes with humanity is perfectly possible, since humanity is now more flexible

    in older editions, a humanity rating of 1-3 is also ok for an Ante,
    but that doesn't make them less of a monster

    humanity 1-3 is not something you'd call "humane"


    that said, alot of the antediluvians are already hinted at being on alternate moralities (Tzimisce on metamorphosis, Zappa on Paradox, Saulot on Heaven etc..),

    the only ones that I think might still be on humanity are Caine, Tremere, Arikel, Troile, Absimiliard, and maybe Brujah,
    but again, that doesn't make them "humane" (or even human), they just have some residual humanity, and they probably don't care to bother with an alternative morality like other Antes do

    also worth mentioning, one of the v20 devs hinted at Antes being in Wassail in this forum iirc,
    but I don't know if it were canon or just his personal headcanon, so...take that as you will

    Leave a comment:


  • CajunKhan
    replied
    They must be on paths. In fact, the abandonment of paths by the company has bothered me since the beginning because it creates a plot hole with respect to the Antes. There is no no nooo way they've kept any humanity that long. Either they are on paths or they are all wights.

    Leave a comment:


  • QueenHerla
    replied
    In Antediluvians? A lot of them aren’t even sapient anymore. Others (Tzimisce) have completely transcended human thought processes. That said, I’m sure there are some who are comparatively personable. Saulot and Cappadocius were apparently decent company (at least sometimes...)

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    I think they'd very much be on Paths or Roads.

    Their morality at their birth time would be very different from later ones.

    Leave a comment:

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