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What would Chivalric Romance tenants be?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Thoth View Post
    A more accurate Chivalric Romance means you offer the girls father a couple of farm animals or a new house in exchange for the arranged marriage. Also don't forget during that period in history it was not unheard of for the familys to expect the bride and groom to consummate the marriage in front of the congregation before leaving the church.

    Funny how details like that don't get brought up in the romance discussions. Perhaps that is the origin of the mid coitus "oh god" comes from.

    So tenants would be something like:
    1. Always offer fair value to the family of your love.
    2. Always introduce yourself to your love after you have finished the deal with the family, that way she can put a face to the name.
    3. Try to figure out ahead of time what your love is into so you don't make her act too wantonly on the altar.
    4. Get a new wife no sooner than 30 years after the marriage, to preserve the sanctity of the tradition and institution.
    No. That's 40k level of 100% extreme parody/satire on the Middle Ages.

    And besides what you've tried to show is practical arrangements around weddings as a socio-economic contract. Not chivalry and not romance.

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    • #17
      Gurkhal thank you 😊


      Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Gurkhal View Post

        No. That's 40k level of 100% extreme parody/satire on the Middle Ages.

        And besides what you've tried to show is practical arrangements around weddings as a socio-economic contract. Not chivalry and not romance.
        That is kind of the point. Back when the code of chivalry was practiced, society used marriage and relationships in a different manner than we do today.

        If you were a peasant then you didn't concern yourself with chivalry when it came to romance. If you were high enough in society to where chivalrous behavior had to be considered, then the family had far more to say on the matter than your personal feelings did, hence the part about arranged marriages based off of what amounts to business deals.

        Also if you dig into the very term chivalry that makes things even more messy. Chivalry comes from a French term for cavalry or a horse mounted warrior, it had nothing to do with moral or ethical standards, just how good you were at fighting from the back of a horse. It is only later on in history when people start romanticizing the idea of the ideal virtuous warrior that "chivalry" starts being converted into the form more akin to what most people think of.

        The same thing happened in Japan with samurai and bushido. It wasn't until after the most of the conflicts had died down that the samurai families started really idealizing bushido and what it meant to be a greater warrior. Essentially once the warrior classes hit a period of relative peace, they have to validate their existence in some way other than fighting, and usually they start focusing on honor systems and ethics to distance themselves from the common people.

        So the base notion of chivalry and romance is akin to asking about fanfiction and romance. They can exist at the same time, but one doesn't have much to do with the other, except perhaps as an example of a lack of understanding.

        Or to put it another way, imagine people a couple centuries into the future looking back at the MCU Captain America and talking about how all WWII soldiers were valorous paragons of virtue and chaste love.

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        • #19
          Well tenets aren't necessarily supposed to be based on realistic behavior. It works perfectly well if there is a clash between the behavior the character should aspire to, and what would be blandly pragmatic or in keeping with what most people are doing.

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          • #20
            I will have to disagree with Thoth here although I understand where he is coming from.

            There was a contemporary code of chivalry during the Middle Ages. It isn't just some romanticized fiction developed later. It was a code the Catholic Church worked hard to impose on the knightly class in order to produce some kind of order on a group of extremely well armed men. It has its origins in the Peace and Truce of God movement, and later channeled martial energies from being used within Christendom against fellow Christians to being used outside Christendom against the enemies of the faith. It was original informal and social and later become more and more codified.

            This historical chivalry is different from later idealized, literary chivalry (which came into existence in the late Middle Ages and early Renaissance when knights still fought), but it was still real. So Thoth is right that we shouldn't confuse later romanticized, literary chivalry used in fiction with actual behavior in the Middle Ages. Nevertheless, there was something real that attempted to channel knights into defending the Church, protecting the weak and helpless, and upholding Biblical virtues. It was a form of social pressure that eventually became formaly embodied in actual codes and organizations. That the knights who tried to follow these codes were also real people who could be hypocrites, fools, and criminals doesn't change there was some kind of code originating in the 11th century and became more formal around the time of the Crusades, and which by the War of the Roses had become an essentially fictional depiction of the past.

            However, chivalry, a martial code of conduct for knights, should not be confused with the tradition of Courtly Love which was a separate development, and has its origins in the Troubadours in southwestern France at a slightly later period, originating around the First Crusade. This romantic tradition - which gave birth to the story of the Lancelot-Guinevere stories among others - was in reaction to a society where marriage was for social and economic reasons, not love. In this case, romance (finding true love) was something done outside of marriage, but kept chaste - sex was not involved. That the Troubadour stories were fiction didn't change the fact that it did influence society. Unlike chivalry, which was practiced in some degree, there is considerable controversy whether anything like Courtly Love was "real" or whether it existed purely like a Medieval version of Harlequin romance books for the ladies living at the courts. Nevertheless, the ideal was there, especially anywhere where French cultural influence happened. And people being people, individuals can always decided to base their own behavior off the poems and stories they heard. Of course here too we have the distinction between ideal and reality. Not everyone adopted these traditions. They were considered scandalous to a certain degree by the Church. And some paramours didn't restrict themselves to "chastely love" and had sex.

            So you have two separate historical traditions that intersected with one another (not one single tradition that combined both, although one could attempt to fulfill both). As such, you can have such a thing as Chivalric Romance tenets. Depending on how historical or literary you want to be in game, you can develop and portray them in different ways. In an RPG, neither one is right or wrong, it is just what makes the game most fun for your group.

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            • #21
              I'll take a shot at some Tenets.
              • Those lower than you in the social structure must serve you, as you must serve your betters; fulfill your duties.
              • Those who are higher in the social structure must provide, defend, and lead their inferiors; noblesse oblige.
              • Dissatisfaction with your current state is dangerous. Be careful what you wish for.
              • Politesse, beauty, and conformity are good. Their opposites -rudeness, ugliness, and eccentricity- are to be punished.
              • Your reputation for honor and personal excellence is everything, defend it with your life.
              • Never betray an oath, whether to your lord, your beloved, or yourself.
              • Treasure those objects which represent your honorable fulfillment of your station. It is not just a sword, a ring, or a spindle, it is your badge of office.

              Oh, and take a quick look at the wikipedia article on chivalry.

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              • #22
                Black Fox I didn’t know all that. This is really helpful. Thanks.

                Black Fox


                Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

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                • #23
                  Not to mention it wasn't until the fourth Lateran council that the church really even got heavily involved in marriage in 1215. Earlier than that people were just married wherever and would parade through the town/village ending at the church door. The priest could bless the union and possibly enter it into the records, but didn't preside over the ceremony like today. Chaucer's wife of bath says she had 5 husbands by the church's door and she was a noble and even her weddings weren't inside the church. Eleanor of Aquataine was remarried only months after her marriage to Louis was anulled. The practicality of needing to reproduce with high childhood mortality rates made remarriage if young enough necessary, nobody waited 30 years.

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                  • #24
                    Wow. I’m impressed. I know who Chaucer is, but I’ve never actually read him (well, I tried once, but I found the Middle English really hard to get through).


                    Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

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                    • #25
                      Tenets of Courtly Love

                      Jealousy burns love brighter. Its impulses must be obeyed
                      To love is ideal. Seek love.
                      Should love wane spurn your lover and seek the arms of another. The unworthy will run, the faithful will aspire to greater heights of love.
                      Reward the passions of Jealousy. It is a sign of Love.
                      Love cannot know two masters. One must end for the other to survive
                      Love must be given freely and without coercion. (For Toreador a difficult Tenant as Presence can be a coercive power)
                      Accept no love except your one true love.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                        Wow. I’m impressed. I know who Chaucer is, but I’ve never actually read him (well, I tried once, but I found the Middle English really hard to get through).
                        Heh, admittedly I haven't read it myself, but I've sat through enough lectures on middle ages history that I know the stories and high points and how they're historically significant.

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                        • #27
                          Chris Wilson I Liked yours. Thanks.


                          Rain On Me... Lady Gaga (I went to the same academic summer camp she did) and Ariana Grande. This song actually works really well with the World of Darkness.

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                          • #28
                            Take challenges from peers, and those of higher stations, but ignore challenges from those of lower station.
                            Those of lower station are not people - don't treat them like people.
                            Challenge warriors from different regions to duels to prove your valor.
                            Murder over slights.
                            Work "hay nonny nonny" into conversation as often as possible.

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