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Okay, I'm begining to hate the Coterie creation rules

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  • Okay, I'm begining to hate the Coterie creation rules

    So, I make a Tzim with a cool haven. It's got cool supernatural flaws, cool merits, it's a really fun, spooky Haven. And I barely get to use it, because the coterie's Haven blows it out of the water, and everyone hangs out there when we're not out on the town doing whatever. But whatever, I deal with my disappointment, and it's otherwise a fun game.

    In another game, I make a Gangrel with the Destitute and No Haven flaws. I'm looking forward to playing this homeless guy who sleeps in the dirt and interacts a lot with his outsider touchstones like this old guy who lives in a camper and spends his time hunting and drinking booze. And then the group makes this awesome group haven that's pretty much the Hall of Justice or the Hall of Doom, and I've got, *sigh* no logical reason not to go hang out in the Hall of Justice where we've got all these luxuries and security to protect us during the day and stuff.

    And it was then, sitting on the luxurious sofa of our safe, luxurious Hall of Justice with all its amenities and ease, that I decided that I HATE the coterie creation system. I liked it better back in the old days when everyone had their own haven, or no haven at all, and the group couldn't make a Hall of Justice. Because now they always make a Hall of Justice. What am I supposed to do? Refuse to contribute two advantage points when everyone else is all excited to build a Hall of Justice and has already agreed to contribute 2 points each to it?

    Stupid Hall of Justice, with its self-contained herd and security guards and wards and clean shinyness. I'm not cleanin' my feet before I walk in this place. If I've got to sit on this super-comfortable sofa, I'm putting my dirty feet on the coffee-table.

  • #2
    Sounds to me like you make a lot of concepts that don't play well with others, so maybe it's not the rules that are wrong........


    You've been playing around the magic that is black
    But all the powerful magical mysteries never gave a single thing back

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    • #3
      Yeah that has nothing to do with the coterie creation rules and everything to do with you not liking your group because in the old system you could pool backgrounds as well. It just wasn't as promoted by the system.

      V20, pooled backgrounds are on page 118 but Haven wasn't even a background back then so there was nothing stopping a coterie from sharing one.

      And besides, coterie points and flaws usually have to be agreed upon by the entire group. Even if they aren't, let's say you are playing a Tzimisce with a decked out haven, you have 7 points and unless your coterie takes flaws or you are playing with 6 other people, the coterie haven couldn't possibly match yours. Or better yet, you just. *GASP* Play it like a shared storytelling game and ask if the coterie's tricked out haven IS your super special haven and you have let them move in and they have helped improve it.

      For the Gangrel, your character either isn't allowed in the haven or mentally refuses to sleep there if you take the No Haven flaw. Like, if your ST let you take those flaws/continue with that character and then yet still use the coterie haven, then that's a problem with how your group runs the game.

      Effectively your issue boils down to: You want to play one style of game, but your group wants to play another. No system will ever fix that.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
        So, I make a Tzim with a cool haven. It's got cool supernatural flaws, cool merits, it's a really fun, spooky Haven. And I barely get to use it, because the coterie's Haven blows it out of the water, and everyone hangs out there when we're not out on the town doing whatever. But whatever, I deal with my disappointment, and it's otherwise a fun game.
        This really sounds like a problem that could have been solved by talking together during character creation.

        Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
        In another game, I make a Gangrel with the Destitute and No Haven flaws. I'm looking forward to playing this homeless guy who sleeps in the dirt and interacts a lot with his outsider touchstones like this old guy who lives in a camper and spends his time hunting and drinking booze. And then the group makes this awesome group haven that's pretty much the Hall of Justice or the Hall of Doom, and I've got, *sigh* no logical reason not to go hang out in the Hall of Justice where we've got all these luxuries and security to protect us during the day and stuff.
        If you got no logical reason to not stay in the haven, use an emotional one perhaps? Or a social one, if you and the group can come up with a reason that your character is part of the coterie but not wanted in the haven.
        Last edited by Heliodromus; 03-30-2020, 05:43 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Dwight View Post
          Sounds to me like you make a lot of concepts that don't play well with others, so maybe it's not the rules that are wrong........
          These characters to their coteries at the end of whatever they're doing that night:
          Last edited by Spencer from The Hills; 03-30-2020, 08:14 AM.

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          • #6
            It does sounds more like a problem with the character concepts than with the rules. Isolationism might not be a good idea in a game that is focused on a coterie.

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            • #7
              The only way a Kindred should be comfortable sharing a haven if there's a blood bond or vinculum involved. I mean, especially if there's a V5 situation of roving government hunter squads. No way should you be focusing into one haven, just look at Viennna.


              Prone to being a Classic Curmudgeon, goshdarned whippersnappers...

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              • #8
                Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post
                The only way a Kindred should be comfortable sharing a haven if there's a blood bond or vinculum involved. I mean, especially if there's a V5 situation of roving government hunter squads. No way should you be focusing into one haven, just look at Viennna.
                I think this depends on how much attention the haven warrants and the nature of its inhabitants' masks. If you have a legitimate source of income that doesn't make people question why they never see you during the day and so forth, then it makes sense to simply buy or rent your own home. If you're off the grid or not very affluent, your options are more limited. Flat sharing with kine is dangerous.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post
                  The only way a Kindred should be comfortable sharing a haven if there's a blood bond or vinculum involved. I mean, especially if there's a V5 situation of roving government hunter squads. No way should you be focusing into one haven, just look at Viennna.
                  I don't play V5, so I don't know how ingrained into the game's structure something like a coterie haven is, but when I read the first post of this thread my immediate reaction was along these lines. Maybe with a bit of "WHAT THE HELL?" thrown in.

                  The idea that the players/characters in *any* of my games would ever have a communal haven... I mean, they barely trust each other enough to work together when their collective asses are on the line. And even then they're edging for position and angles over each other.

                  I've always thought that was a feature (not a bug) of Vampire -- that when you get right down to it, you can't trust ANYONE, not even the people in your own group.

                  EDIT: I have on occasion had coteries that had a collective *emergency* haven, for those times when you can't make it back to Chatsworth by sunrise. But even that's considered a stopgap measure and fraught with peril.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post

                    I think this depends on how much attention the haven warrants and the nature of its inhabitants' masks. If you have a legitimate source of income that doesn't make people question why they never see you during the day and so forth, then it makes sense to simply buy or rent your own home. If you're off the grid or not very affluent, your options are more limited. Flat sharing with kine is dangerous.
                    Flat sharing with kine is way more preferable to with other Kindred. Pretty much every non sabbat character i've had has done that, you Ghoul your flatmate and it's really not a problem. In fact living in a building with multiple people in it can be to your advantage, there's normal activity going on, so there'll be less attention drawn.



                    Prone to being a Classic Curmudgeon, goshdarned whippersnappers...

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                    • #11
                      My mother and I could have pooled our finances to live in a nicer home than either of us has individually. Yet, I haven't lived in my parents' home in a quarter century because I like living independently and having my own place where I call the shots. Why would this not be an acceptable approach to the issue of shared housing with one's vaguely trusted allies?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Legendre View Post

                        I don't play V5, so I don't know how ingrained into the game's structure something like a coterie haven is, but when I read the first post of this thread my immediate reaction was along these lines. Maybe with a bit of "WHAT THE HELL?" thrown in.

                        The idea that the players/characters in *any* of my games would ever have a communal haven... I mean, they barely trust each other enough to work together when their collective asses are on the line. And even then they're edging for position and angles over each other.

                        I've always thought that was a feature (not a bug) of Vampire -- that when you get right down to it, you can't trust ANYONE, not even the people in your own group.

                        EDIT: I have on occasion had coteries that had a collective *emergency* haven, for those times when you can't make it back to Chatsworth by sunrise. But even that's considered a stopgap measure and fraught with peril.

                        A large part of V5's design is meant to set up vampires who work together for mutual advancement and goals, which necessitates a level of trust. It's there to prevent the old 'you all show up to Elysium, wat do?' problems a lot of STs have, or 'lone wolf never interacts with the plot because he doesn't like the other characters' or 'I backstab EVERYONE I'm supposed to be cooperating with' junk that derails games.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by elmerg View Post
                          A large part of V5's design is meant to set up vampires who work together for mutual advancement and goals, which necessitates a level of trust. It's there to prevent the old 'you all show up to Elysium, wat do?' problems a lot of STs have, or 'lone wolf never interacts with the plot because he doesn't like the other characters' or 'I backstab EVERYONE I'm supposed to be cooperating with' junk that derails games.
                          I can understand that.

                          But learning how to deal with those problems, how to turn them from bugs into features, made me into a much better ST. Communal havens feels like a crutch.

                          And -- without getting all judgy about it -- it also totally feels like the "Hall of Justice" and I am SOOOOOO going to steal that phrase as a way for this one NPC to refer to the way that all the coterie members in my current game hang out at the Toreador's "public" haven. (Which, of course, is not where she sleeps.)

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                          • #14
                            I think a group haven sounds cool. You could hang out together, research stuff in the communal library, make out with your boyfriend or girlfriend (in separate rooms, of course)...

                            Anyway, it sounds like a great idea to bond your coterie together and keep you from turning on each other when an NPC (maybe an elder) tries to convince one of you to betray the rest of the group.


                            “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

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                            • #15
                              I know that it's requiem but there is a great piece of fiction in one of the books where one character burns down the communal haven so there's that risk. Also my groups are far to pvp to ever share a haven.

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