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Okay, I'm begining to hate the Coterie creation rules

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Penelope View Post
    I think a group haven sounds cool. You could hang out together, research stuff in the communal library, make out with your boyfriend or girlfriend (in separate rooms, of course)...
    Well, i like Buffy the Vampire Slayer quite a bit, but it's not what i'd expect from a VtM game...


    Prone to being a Classic Curmudgeon, goshdarned whippersnappers...

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Legendre View Post

      I can understand that.

      But learning how to deal with those problems, how to turn them from bugs into features, made me into a much better ST. Communal havens feels like a crutch.

      And -- without getting all judgy about it -- it also totally feels like the "Hall of Justice" and I am SOOOOOO going to steal that phrase as a way for this one NPC to refer to the way that all the coterie members in my current game hang out at the Toreador's "public" haven. (Which, of course, is not where she sleeps.)
      And kudos to you for that, but not every ST does or can. Especially with V5's design goal of being a lot more for new players as well, people who aren't already used to that or coming in from outside the hobby.

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      • #18
        jamiemalk if you’re a group of neonates, you need something that will help you bond more closely with the rest of your coterie. Otherwise you run the risk of the whole game degenerating into a bunch of vampires plotting against each other. And I wasn’t (totally) being silly with the last part. I meant that you could have time for your character’s own private activities and still also be part of the coterie as a whole. Malkavians could especially benefit from a group haven because the other characters could help them deal with their neuroses better. I’m just saying, I think it’s a cool idea.


        “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

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        • #19
          Random question: why is the time stamp on my answer 56 minutes off from the time I actually posted it?


          “It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...” Sidney Carton’s last line before going to the guillotine to save his True Love and her husband

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Penelope View Post
            [USER="1037"]jamiemalk[/USER. Otherwise you run the risk of the whole game degenerating into a bunch of vampires plotting against each other. .
            That's... kinda how you're meant to play it. Playing in a game where you're comfortable with everyone elses character is for DnD. Fear, loathing and paranoia is the cornerstone of any great vampire story. Besides that, there are additional considerations; The Toreador's image would be ruins should he deign to live with the Nosferatu, the Malk's too smart to live with either, the Brujah is too dangerous, and the Ventrue has certain obligations that do not work with shared unliving space. When you have three-five vampires living together, how do they deal with their retainers/allies/contacts/herd?

            Look
            You're usually not meant to take a shared haven. Unless you're in a cult or you're all Nosferatu/Tremere (In which case you need more points than given) or you're extreme BFF/actually related or. of course, blood bound. you shouldn't do this, at least in the Cam. Sharing Domain isn't a bad idea for coteries, but havens is a no-no. Actually I'm convinced V5 coterie dots should all go to "chasse" or some normal background you wanted as a group.

            What you're witnissing is really a change in paradigm; Shared Havens are For Anarch games (and sabbat, but they all disappeared miraculously) and V5 is all about Anarchs banding together to fight the big-bad-stupid cam.


            Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
              That's... kinda how you're meant to play it. Playing in a game where you're comfortable with everyone elses character is for DnD. Fear, loathing and paranoia is the cornerstone of any great vampire story. Besides that, there are additional considerations; The Toreador's image would be ruins should he deign to live with the Nosferatu, the Malk's too smart to live with either, the Brujah is too dangerous, and the Ventrue has certain obligations that do not work with shared unliving space. When you have three-five vampires living together, how do they deal with their retainers/allies/contacts/herd?

              Look
              You're usually not meant to take a shared haven. Unless you're in a cult or you're all Nosferatu/Tremere (In which case you need more points than given) or you're extreme BFF/actually related or. of course, blood bound. you shouldn't do this, at least in the Cam. Sharing Domain isn't a bad idea for coteries, but havens is a no-no. Actually I'm convinced V5 coterie dots should all go to "chasse" or some normal background you wanted as a group.

              What you're witnissing is really a change in paradigm; Shared Havens are For Anarch games (and sabbat, but they all disappeared miraculously) and V5 is all about Anarchs banding together to fight the big-bad-stupid cam.

              I'd love for you to cite me a page number where it talks about the goal and way to play is to backstab the other PCs. The game can be played that way, but it's not the default or pushed play mode in any prior edition. I'm glad you enjoy that, but a lot of players in tabletop don't, and it's a very LARP mindset to have where that IS more of a stated mode of play. I do find it funny that you're sitting there talking about playing vampires who have trust of each other in a badwrongfun manner in the same way that you complain about V5 though.
              Last edited by elmerg; 03-31-2020, 12:49 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by elmerg View Post

                I do find it funny that you're sitting there talking about playing vampires who have trust of each other in a badwrongfun manner in the same way that you complain about V5 though.
                Yeah well, there were passive/aggressive suggestions of badwrongfun being directed at CajunKhan for not liking the system...



                Prone to being a Classic Curmudgeon, goshdarned whippersnappers...

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post

                  Yeah well, there were passive/aggressive suggestions of badwrongfun being directed at CajunKhan for not liking the system...
                  Maybe don't start a thread decrying the nature of the coterie rules by posting examples that don't work well with the collective coterie nature of v5?


                  You've been playing around the magic that is black
                  But all the powerful magical mysteries never gave a single thing back

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                  • #24
                    I personally like a balance in Vampire while every player understands we're all there to have fun and won't do things that turn things against each other, while having our PCs in character still have some wariness and tension with their coterie mates because they understand everyone is a vampire, and you can't be entirely trustful, even if you are short or long term ally. Even in situations where a character does trust another character as a person, there should still be some concern that the person may be secretly influenced by a blood bond or Dominate, or that in certain situations the person could frenzy or succumb to the Beast.

                    I don't think either of the character backgrounds the OP used indicate the player can't play well with others, or that those PCs are inappropriate. It's just that communal havens that were built went against the genre expectations. I'm inclined to agree.

                    I don't necessarily think that is a fault of the rules, as it should be a discussion within that player group.

                    But I think that has always been an issue with the Storyteller system mechanics versus the World of Darkness setting. If you play by the rules as opposed to using the rules to fulfill genre expectations, you can turn it into a very different game than "intended." That's been in existence from day one of first edition. And it is a problem found in most systems that seek to emulate a specific genre feel as people exploit the mechanics as opposed to acting in-character for the genre. Every gaming group will address that in their own way.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                      I personally like a balance in Vampire while every player understands we're all there to have fun and won't do things that turn things against each other, while having our PCs in character still have some wariness and tension with their coterie mates because they understand everyone is a vampire, and you can't be entirely trustful, even if you are short or long term ally. Even in situations where a character does trust another character as a person, there should still be some concern that the person may be secretly influenced by a blood bond or Dominate, or that in certain situations the person could frenzy or succumb to the Beast.

                      I don't think either of the character backgrounds the OP used indicate the player can't play well with others, or that those PCs are inappropriate. It's just that communal havens that were built went against the genre expectations. I'm inclined to agree.

                      I don't necessarily think that is a fault of the rules, as it should be a discussion within that player group.

                      But I think that has always been an issue with the Storyteller system mechanics versus the World of Darkness setting. If you play by the rules as opposed to using the rules to fulfill genre expectations, you can turn it into a very different game than "intended." That's been in existence from day one of first edition. And it is a problem found in most systems that seek to emulate a specific genre feel as people exploit the mechanics as opposed to acting in-character for the genre. Every gaming group will address that in their own way.

                      What you're stating is how it should be. Everyone talking to be on the same page. If that same page is BACKSTAB AHOY then, cool. But there are way too many vampire players who feel lie BACKSTAB AHOY is the main mode, regardless of anything else.

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                      • #26
                        Yes, players pissing on each other and ruining the fun for other players is a problem. But that is a separate conversation from this thread. My comment was that some people were saying the OP's play style must be like that, but I don't think that's case. It wasn't how I interpreted the comment.

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                        • #27
                          Yes but just because a group of players wanted to have a communal haven does not mean the rules are the problem. It is no different than having 4 players in a V20 game decide that they are going to pool 2 dots for resources 8 and always having lots of money when you want to play a poor person. You will benefit in the game from them always having cash to buy hotels and chill in their heavily fortified building or buy city officials to have what they want.

                          The rules for pooling backgrounds aren't bad because the party wished to use them like that. The underlying problem is the table as a whole seems to not be on the same page as to the style of game they wish to play. the OP seems to want to work for what they get and have some actual struggles while the rest wish to game it a bit. Neither is wrong but when have the table wants to game it and halve wants a challenge you will have a clash and it is not the individual players fault. the table needs to figure out what type of game they wish to play.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by elmerg View Post


                            I'd love for you to cite me a page number where it talks about the goal and way to play is to backstab the other PCs. The game can be played that way, but it's not the default or pushed play mode in any prior edition. I'm glad you enjoy that, but a lot of players in tabletop don't, and it's a very LARP mindset to have where that IS more of a stated mode of play. I do find it funny that you're sitting there talking about playing vampires who have trust of each other in a badwrongfun manner in the same way that you complain about V5 though.

                            I really think you're just taking what I've said out of proportion. I don't want a deathmatch, but the game certainly encourages rivalry as all players are beholden to prestation, and players are encouraged to have personal goals in a sandbox city. Coteries have always been more Axis than Allies, and to have all players get along swimingly either requires a session zero to craft perfectly aligned character motivations or it requires some degree of farce. Even if you have all thought of concepts that get along. you're limited by that, and it's even more difficult having a shared haven with different clan members. What If Brujah A frenzies in the Haven and kills player B's prized retainer? What if a Ventrue player A is forced into succor by Ventrue B, and the players with no say must now share their living space with Ventrue B or risk conflict? What if one of the players is a fool/Their character is unskilled, and they lead inquisitors home or otherwise incur the wrath of more powerful vampires who must target the haven and it's coterie by association. You really need to closely tailor concepts to have a communal haven work for a long period of time.


                            Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                            • #29
                              Vampire does seem to encourage rivalry a smidge more then say Werewolf or Wraith.


                              It is a time for great deeds!

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                              • #30
                                The books are full of tangled webs of politics, backstabbing, forbidden dalliances, etc. The character relationship maps are usually along the lines of 'hate', 'tolerate', 'secretly love', 'want to kill to steal his stuff', etc. They're very rarely 'want to move in and hang out with'. So I think some degree of PvP is fine.

                                That said, we normally play Sabbat games, so they're all connected via Vinculi anyway. Ironically, the Sabbat have the best reason to share a haven, but they've run off now.

                                If you don't want to pool your haven, I think it's fine to ask to have your own. It will have the consequence of raising suspicion between the coterie hanging out like Friends and the one who always flits off, but that might actually work better for your concept than just going along with it?

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