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  • [V5] The Sabbat in V5

    How would you handle the Sabbat in V5.

    This was posted in another thread and really interesting.

    Originally posted by Val_Nir
    Didn't get my hands on those, so can't comment. I still think V5 books just present Sabbat as in the 1ed - nothing but vague speculations and an amplified aura of 'booo scary' for Anarch kids. In the corebook, they even added another alias of the sect - Black Church. Lol, seriously? What's next, Spooky Castle?

    I've read the post on your vision and could agree only on loyalists going into anarchs, making them more violent overall. I partially agree Moderates' elders going Camarilla or Oradea league or independent. However, after reading BJD and V5 corebook, I think we can safely say the authors articulated their idea pretty well: the most of Sabbat slowly but steadily has migrated to MENA and other warzones. 'Sabbat cities emptying out' is a pretty straightforward statement which leaves almost no room for interpretations. That also means the crusaders will become the core line of the sect, regardless if or when the Crusade ends.

    Now, here is where yours and my visions go the opposite ways. Your playable Sabbat is the back-up Sabbat - those who stayed, for whatever reason. Orthodoxy theologists mixed with some Inquisition mixed with some particularly devoted Loyalists and some particularly devoted Moderate researchers and scientists. The role of Belial brood in your version is left to crusaders who - most obviously in canon too - will form the bulk of the sect, with your playable 'sedated Sabbat' numbers-wise being nothing more than a handful of undercover agents and covens scattered across both Americas and Europe.

    My version makes the Sabbat cut out the ones who left or defected and leave the returning crusaders as playable. I would like to have them as a militant Tal'Mahe'Ra but with an opposite ideology and goals, being led by the Inquisition - False Hand either compromises itself completely (their ties with Ancients' worshippers cult got publicly exposed, for example) and was disbanded or put the goals of the sect first and merges with the Inquisition in order to avoid political infighting in the times of war. The Focus will shift from Cam-Sabbat war to Methuselahs-Tal-Mahe-Ra-Ancients-Infernalists, with Camarilla or Anarchs becoming targets of second or even third (after Second Inquisition) priority; Anarchs will be facing Sabbat only when the circumstances demand it from the latter (no more overt war on all fronts with everyone who's not Sabbat, I'd rather have such lunatics perish first under elders' fangs in the crusade. War is a harsh but very effective teacher).

    Rise of Inquisition is also heavily implied by BJD. As a long time Sabbat player, I noticed this trend in V20, when RotB introduced the Orthodox faction and their rites. Then we had BJD where Black Hand - the Revised's Sabbat champions who even got their own awesome book Caine's Chosen back in 2003 - were depicted as fallen from grace and eviscerated across Mexico City by Inquisition packs as the new civil war erupts. At the same time, Inquisition glows up from being a small club of 20 or so cainites in Revised to a heavyweight political player - Lucita as Regent will likely support Inquisition instead of Hand, and then Sandoza herself is presented as a possible Regent candidacy. That shift in the mood could indicate a crucial role Inquisition might play in the new Sabbat. One of their new primary goals would be the pruning of the new-Sabbat ranks from 'montycovened locusts' who lost their minds after gorging on elder blood.

    I really loved BH (Zillah's tribe) in revised and thought of them as an example of where I see the sect but writers went out of their way in V20/BJD to depict how irreversibly deep the Tal'Mahe'Ra infiltration goes. At this point, I don't believe False Hand can go on waging war on Ancients when there are the ancients' defenders among their very ranks. Sabbat got their suspicions voiced in 2004, I believe they'll manage to clear it all up by 2020 or whenever Sabbat is back as playable. I am also sure the Inquisition will probably do a much better job at educating younger Cainites embraced before and during the war in Paths; they are more into occult than Black Hand too, the very blob dedicated to the sect in V5 corebook says 'occultation of the Sabbat'. Obviously, I'm trying to connect all the dots here.

    Yes, I am pretty sure the Paths are crucial to the Sabbat, especially after going through hell of a war trying to fulfill their purpose and destiny as a sect; after supernatural horrors and atrocities they witnessed and committed 'over there', I doubt Humanity could hold any single one of them sane, let alone the newly embraced ones who will likely be the PCs. Paths were almost always either a central theme of my own Sab chronicles or of extreme importance.

    The main themes and moods would be post-human relationships; the price of war on human and post-human mind; the search for redemption in the face of atrocities both witnessed and committed; the consequences of indoctrination; and most of all, trauma and a quest for spirituality, camaraderie and brotherhood in the face of the worst the Vampire can put you against - your Beast, maddened by years of relentless global conflict against powers you can barely comprehend. How do you deal with it, where do you look for a moral compass and a backbone to carry on when the cosy familiar human-centric set of values (Humanity) is gone and your inner darkness is pressing down on you, who is beside you in these darkest moments and how it feels to see them meeting Final Death. I always felt the war or rather post-war themes present a unique opportunity for the most emotionally powerful Sabbat chronicles; the gehenna war and it's consequences are just that.

    I digress heavily from the thread's matter and I'd rather have a separate thread on Sabbat since it's my favorite part of VtM; I'd rather stop at this point


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

  • #2
    I recommend checking out THE CHICAGO FOLIOS because it gives a lot of information beyond what would normally be available in a book that just deals with Chicago on both THE SABBAT and RAVNOS, which I didn't think would have information in both.

    On Page 78 and 79 of the book, they talk about the breakup of the Sabbat.


    The Seven Fires

    Chicago, for all its corruption and horrors, understands though it may wallow in degradation, it has nothing on the empire of perpeturbation that is the Sabbat. Th city has had many horrific encounters with the fanatical sect, most recent being the dread nights of 1993. Little is known about the fringe and alien sect. What is known is the Sabbat relinquished control over its holdings and threw itself into a purported "Gehenna War." With the advent of the Lasombra defection, there have been whispers of concern about what the Sabbat will do in retaliation. To help the Lasombra in their quest to join the Camarilla is to potentially put a target for the Sabbat on your back.

    The Chicago Sabbat have become a cell organization, perpetuating atrocities by some byzantine design. These cells have become known as "The Seven Fires"< the surviving cells not called off to the Gehenna War, destroyed by Edward Neally, or killed by the defecting Lasombra. This is likely a name given to them due to their ferocity, related to their brutal "ritae", often connected to fire, their appalling "games", or something to do with their numbers of operatives or groups known as packs.

    The Seven Fires leave nothing but carnage and perplexing propaganda in their wake. In their graffiti, their trail of mutilated bodies, and arcane scrawl, they reference the story of Peter Pan, possibly an allusion to the Lasombra defection and "losing their shadow." These Cainites are appearing close and closer to Chicago border, emerging in more run down or economically suburbs.
    What Happened

    What befell the Sabbat in the United States is still broadly a mystery. Packs disappeared, the hierarchy dissolved, and many of the Cainites remaining in place lost their grip on reality and stability as their purpose disappeared.
    I really like what they're alluding to with the changes to the Sabbat.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

      I really like what they're alluding to with the changes to the Sabbat.
      Still not sure what really their hints could mean. At first glance, it's 1st ed all over again, spiced up with the worst names and organizations the modern world knows. I am not a fan of it and certainly cannot see them as playable.

      I'm rather waiting for the crusaders' eventual return and for big names like Lucita, Polonia, Vasantasena, that clown Vykos (I wish we had Rustovitch instead), Sandoza, Contreraz, Radu, Wilkshire, whole Montreal dream team, Adonai, Jalan and others.

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      • #4
        It's simple, they handed the Sabbat the idiot ball, made them fracture for an incomprehensible reason, gutted the systems that supported Paths, and shipped off some serious numbers to the Anarchs, because they hate anyone who wants to play an none Anarchs game, that is the Devs plan, pure and simple, Anarchs have to win everything for zero effort because they are the master sect, and if you enjoy any other type of game they don't want you in the community, they will however use just enough marketing to delude you into buying books, but you aren't really wanted, the desecration of Masquerade with the utter garbage of Requiem, shows that, a system that has no good ideas at all, yet is being forced in VtM. The horrible Potency system, teh sickening local focus. , The disgusting mutilated version of d10, the nauseating version of humanity, all the utter failure and rot stuffed in, to a fan base that had already rejected it.
        Last edited by Taggie; 04-13-2020, 12:34 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Taggie View Post
          It's simple, they handed the Sabbat the idiot ball, made them fracture for an incomprehensible reason, gutted the systems that supported Paths, and shipped off some serious numbers to the Anarchs, because they hate anyone who wants to play an none Anarchs game, that is the Devs plan, pure and simple, Anarchs have to win everything for zero effort because they are the master sect, and if you enjoy any other type of game they don't want you in the community, they will however use just enough marketing to delude you into buying books, but you aren't really wanted, the desecration of Masquerade with the utter garbage of Requiem, shows that, a system that has no good ideas at all, yet is being forced in VtM. The horrible Potency system, teh sickening local focus. , The disgusting mutilated version of d10, the nauseating version of humanity, all the utter failure and rot stuffed in, to a fan base that had already rejected it.
          Taggie, you're welcome to your opinion but the Anarchs have been fighting the good fight for 800 years. So where is the bullshit of, "win everything for zero effort" coming from? The Anarchs have suffered and been hardened by all the crap they've gone through. If anyone deserves big victories, it's them.

          At the least can you say your relationship to the Anarchs and Anarch players is not the norm?


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post

            Still not sure what really their hints could mean. At first glance, it's 1st ed all over again, spiced up with the worst names and organizations the modern world knows. I am not a fan of it and certainly cannot see them as playable.

            I'm rather waiting for the crusaders' eventual return and for big names like Lucita, Polonia, Vasantasena, that clown Vykos (I wish we had Rustovitch instead), Sandoza, Contreraz, Radu, Wilkshire, whole Montreal dream team, Adonai, Jalan and others.
            I think the Sabbat as described here are a much more interesting group. They're no longer a single unified group but a potentially large number of allied sects that are carrying out a mysterious and occult agenda that the Camarilla as well as Anarchs don't understand. The Seven Fires are The Midwest Sabbat so to speak and can be developed on their own so that locals can potentially either defeat or deal with on a more managable level. It's a mini-Sabbat and how the game can develop other mini-Sabbats are intriguing to me.

            I also like that the Sabbat have realized they don't need to hold territory and that such a thing just makes them a cheap imitation of the Camarilla. Instead, they're living under fake identities and the margins of their enemies' own. They are immune to the Inquisition now because they simply take what they need and become a nightmare that the locals are terrified of.

            I do think that Lucita should be behind the defection to the Camarilla, though. Sabbat Lucita just feels like a generic Lasombra woman while her entire thing is she's a rebel against Elder control ala the Anarchs. I was upset when they killed Carolina Valez, though.

            She was one of my favorites from Montreal by night.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

              Taggie, you're welcome to your opinion but the Anarchs have been fighting the good fight for 800 years. So where is the bullshit of, "win everything for zero effort" coming from? The Anarchs have suffered and been hardened by all the crap they've gone through. If anyone deserves big victories, it's them.

              At the least can you say your relationship to the Anarchs and Anarch players is not the norm?
              The Anarchs went from a few malcontents, criminals and agitators with a failed free state experiment behind them, being ground under by better organized, motivated and equipped forces, to the most powerful and unified group between editions, without actually doing anything, because the other groups handed them victory by default by making hugely stupid decisions that ran totally counter to every piece of previous lore on them...so yes zero effort. As to my relationship with Anarchs, I know nobody currently IRL who likes the Anarchs, (or rather did, most people stopped playing WoD as RL took time away from gaming, and as previously mentioned the few Anarchs players we had encountered were more trouble in and out of game than they were worth), this is anecdotal, but they were never popular, and their dudebro with fangs schtick just didn't fly, if we wanted rebel without a clue aholes..well the Socialist Workers Party was just down the road....

              The Camarilla and Sabbat were actually is interesting, twisted feudal conspiracies and dark philosophical ideas crossed with inhuman violence was something outside experience, wanna be revolutionaries and thugs were the guys vandalising your stuff, breaking phoneboxes, trying to shake you down for 'donations' or beating you up for not joining them,but WW decided to make that kind of noxious, abusive turd the poster child for their game.

              Oh and the battle hardened veterans of 800 years lost, they are committing suicide by stupidity in the ME.
              Last edited by Taggie; 04-13-2020, 01:53 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                The Anarchs went from a few malcontents, criminals and agitators with a failed free state experiment behind them, being ground under by better organized, motivated and equipped forces, to the most powerful and unified group between editions, without actually doing anything, because the other groups handed them victory by default by making hugely stupid decisions that ran totally counter to every piece of previous lore on them...so yes zero effort.
                Bloodlines had them retake the Free States, they then were depicted as having gained great new power in Beckett's Jyhad Diary, and they were shown to have grown into an international movement in both GUIDE TO THE ANARCHS (Revised) as well as ANARCHS UNBOUND (V20). http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...chy-in-the-wod

                They were also shown as a powerful faction in the Clan Novels. So what you're saying is not true and against the lore. The period where they were beaten with the Anarchs Free States destroyed ironically was right before their big revival in fandom.

                As to my relationship with Anarchs, I know nobody currently IRL who likes the Anarchs, (or rather did, most people stopped playing WoD as RL took time away from gaming, and as previously mentioned the few Anarchs players we had encountered were more trouble in and out of game than they were worth), this is anecdotal, but they were never popular, and their dudebro with fangs schtick just didn't fly, if we wanted rebel without a clue aholes..well the Socialist Workers Party was just down the road....
                Yeah, your group doesn't like Anarchs. Hence why I said, "Your experience does not define the Anarchs." Dudebro is also weird given many of the most important Anarch leaders in game are women.

                The Camarilla and Sabbat were actually is interesting, twisted feudal conspiracies and dark philosophical ideas crossed with inhuman violence was something outside experience, wanna be revolutionaries and thugs were the guys vandalising your stuff, breaking phoneboxes, trying to shake you down for 'donations' or beating you up for not joining them,but WW decided to make that kind of noxious, abusive turd the poster child for their game.
                Maldavis is a Civil Rights activist. So is Anita Wainwright. They represent the intellectual side of the Anarch movement. Therese Voorman also was an Anarch opposed to the Prince in Bloodlines. I'm also pleased that they've had Tyler go back to her Anarch roots as it gives their movement a new veteran leader that's a woman.

                Oh and the battle hardened veterans of 800 years lost, they are committing suicide by stupidity in the ME.
                They lost because it's the World of Darkness and they were becoming monsters and psychopaths. That doesn't mean their story isn't interesting.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                  1)Bloodlines had them retake the Free States, they then were depicted as having gained great new power in Beckett's Jyhad Diary, and they were shown to have grown into an international movement in both GUIDE TO THE ANARCHS (Revised) as well as ANARCHS UNBOUND (V20). http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...chy-in-the-wod

                  They were also shown as a powerful faction in the Clan Novels. So what you're saying is not true and against the lore. The period where they were beaten with the Anarchs Free States destroyed ironically was right before their big revival in fandom.



                  2)Yeah, your group doesn't like Anarchs. Hence why I said, "Your experience does not define the Anarchs." Dudebro is also weird given many of the most important Anarch leaders in game are women.



                  3)Maldavis is a Civil Rights activist. So is Anita Wainwright. They represent the intellectual side of the Anarch movement. Therese Voorman also was an Anarch opposed to the Prince in Bloodlines. I'm also pleased that they've had Tyler go back to her Anarch roots as it gives their movement a new veteran leader that's a woman.



                  4)They lost because it's the World of Darkness and they were becoming monsters and psychopaths. That doesn't mean their story isn't interesting.

                  1)And yet in none of that did they actually WORK for anything, they had opponents that suddenly became so stupid as to barely avoid the sun....for some reason.

                  2)Female dudebros are totally a thing (aka Ladettes)

                  3)and they guys beating people for donations to the cause called them selves 'activists' and made flowery speeches, they look and sound a lot like Maldavis etc, violent psychopaths and bullies who learned a speech to legitimise being parasitic filth, with, like Maldavis, no redeeming features or worth , just another lump of meat that isn't rotting fast enough yet.

                  4)being obliterated to hand over most of your stuff to the anarchs isn't interesting, 'look ma we put edge lord super terrorists in our games aren't we shocking and edgy also vampires made the chechen death camps and ISIS is a vampire plot! ' isn't interesting, it's childish, dull and insulting, like WOD Gypsies bad.
                  Last edited by Taggie; 04-13-2020, 05:04 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Taggie View Post
                    1)And yet in none of that did they actually WORK for anything, they had opponents that suddenly became so stupid as to barely avoid the sun....for some reason.
                    You're going to have to define "work" for anything given that the rise of the Anarchs is shown to be the Anarchs rallying against the Camarilla, killing La Croix, and the elaborate story about the Red Question striking out against the Camarilla with the help of a bunch of Tremere defectors. Certainly, the Clan Novels show the Anarchs fighting in the streets against the Sabbat and working to build themselves up.

                    Or are you going to argue that there's no way for the Anarchs to actually fight the Camarilla because:

                    1. You think Anarchs are stupid.
                    2. You think Camarilla are smart

                    Therefore the Anarchs are always going to lose the Camarilla. If that's you're argument, please say because then we can save ourselves a discussion.

                    2)Female dudebros are totally a thing (aka Ladettes)
                    Which does not describe those women.

                    3)and they guys beating people for donations to the cause called them selves 'activists' and made flowery speeches, they look and sound a lot like Maldavis etc, violent psychopaths and bullies who learned a speech to legitimise being parasitic filth, with, like Maldavis, no redeeming features or worth , just another lump of meat that isn't rotting fast enough yet.
                    I'm disturbed you're describing a Civil Rights activist for blacks in the 60s as filth. I'm ascribing you the benefit of the doubt in this but even then, your argument is:

                    "Sabbat are enlightened intellectual posthumans" while "Anarchs are mean nasty poopheads."

                    4)being obliterated to hand over most of your stuff to the anarchs isn't interesting, 'look ma we put edge lord super terrorists in our games aren't we shocking and edgy also vampires made the chechen death camps and ISIS is a vampire plot! ' isn't interesting, it's childish, dull and insulting, like WOD Gypsies bad.
                    I'm confused about this since Edgelord Super Terrorists is how I think of the less intelligent Sabbat. The Anarchs certainly have never been that way.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post



                      I also like that the Sabbat have realized they don't need to hold territory and that such a thing just makes them a cheap imitation of the Camarilla.
                      I disagree. Sabbat need their own cities because only in their own cities is path-exploration really possible. In order to have stories where path exploration is paramount, you need a certain level of stability and peace and control. Can't really become a Path Paragon while doing spy stuff.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                        1)You're going to have to define "work" for anything given that the rise of the Anarchs is shown to be the Anarchs rallying against the Camarilla, killing La Croix, and the elaborate story about the Red Question striking out against the Camarilla with the help of a bunch of Tremere defectors. Certainly, the Clan Novels show the Anarchs fighting in the streets against the Sabbat and working to build themselves up.

                        Or are you going to argue that there's no way for the Anarchs to actually fight the Camarilla because:

                        1. You think Anarchs are stupid.
                        2. You think Camarilla are smart

                        Therefore the Anarchs are always going to lose the Camarilla. If that's you're argument, please say because then we can save ourselves a discussion.



                        2)Which does not describe those women.



                        3)I'm disturbed you're describing a Civil Rights activist for blacks in the 60s as filth. I'm ascribing you the benefit of the doubt in this but even then, your argument is:

                        "Sabbat are enlightened intellectual posthumans" while "Anarchs are mean nasty poopheads."



                        4)I'm confused about this since Edgelord Super Terrorists is how I think of the less intelligent Sabbat. The Anarchs certainly have never been that way.


                        1) I think the anarchs are stupid, in that they are acting that way. Ok, to do what they want to do, carry an insurgency into guerilla warfare, then into victory, requires you do certain things, they started with in the streets rioting (or the vampire version) not smart, but happens, understandable that before you get tactics in place, organisation, a rigid unified command and logistics structure in place etc that the foot soldiers do break stuff, but you can't stay like that, you need to get in place a unified spine to organise the cannon chow at the pointy end (the Sabbat had this, so to an extent does the Cam, but they are less of a military organisation and more of a feudal grace and favour network, the Anarchs don't...which is the problem). When you have that spine you then spin off cells, these cells only know 1 point of contact with the spine and then only the cell leader, they in turn as you grown, become the leaders of new cells, again, only they know the guy 1 place up, (so Spine---Local Leader---sub leaders---cell members). Something like that, Maoists do it different to Bolsheviks who are different to Viet Cong or Mujahadeen, but you get the idea. When you have that in place, you then start doing 'propaganda of the deed' showy acts of defiance and violence, classic bomb throwing anarchist stuff, make the opfor look weak, foolish and ineffective, while your direct action wing does that, you have sympathisers and/or allies working on the perceptions of outside forces, so in this case the Independent Clans, Autarkis, etc, putting forward the message that you have no fight with them, doing deals, etc etc, acting like a nation state in waiting. This is stage one, stage two is moving the strikes onto more military targets, (so we would in this case move from blowing up Harpies, burning down Elysiums etc, to ambushing the Sheriff and scourges striking any visiting Archons, hitting the mortal law enforcement they have subverted etc etc , moving on from Propaganda of the Deed to true guerilla or resistance strikes, at this point you increase propaganda, you are trying to hive away wavering factions etc, split the opposition. The Final stage, is direct force on force conflict, to reach this stage the target has to be destabalised, confused, paranoid, and vulnerable and even then it's really dicey without outside aid.

                        The Anarchs always seem to go stage 1) Riot ??????? 5) profit. (and it's usually by defection or similar in ways that just aren't credible) The Sabbat Crusades don't follow this model, they are a mix of 'Vampire wave tactics' with elite strike teams, but also need some work at a practical level, just less.

                        2+3) It does from the descriptions we have in WoD, they aren't done any favours at all, and come across as foolish and/or thugs, who can't plan anything, can't lead for toffee, and are still animate for reasons that make no sense.

                        The Sabbat aren't enlightened, they think they are, they are evil monstrous parasitic filth like every other vampire, they do however have a very interesting society and set of delusions held up by weird philosophy

                        4) That was my complaint about what the Sabbat had been turning into, sorry. They had been done better in the past, when they were less openly expies of ongoing real world events which are still killing dozens of people a day. (Which is V5s problem in general, they utterly violate the 50 year rule [which was unofficial I know] of 'human evil is human evil if it happened more recently than 50 years ago' and that gives us Sabbat-ISIS, Ashirra death camps etc) When they Sabbat was an attempt at a post human morality, dressed in religious garb to try and hide it's hypocrisy, they worked, a union of self proclaimed philosophers and zealots with a nest of barely contained utterly inhuman rabble behind them, barely contained by half understood paths had no real world parrelels, didn't make unfortunate implications on a massive scale, and was an interesting sand box to play in, it got less so the less central 'everyone has to be on a path' became.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Taggie View Post
                          'look ma we put edge lord super terrorists in our games aren't we shocking and edgy also vampires made the chechen death camps and ISIS is a vampire plot! ' isn't interesting, it's childish, dull and insulting, like WOD Gypsies bad.
                          They went out of their way in Beckett's Jyhad Diary to remind players aiming to do Gehenna war chronicles that Sabbat does not give a heck about human conflicts, reason which led to them and does not fuel it. If you are a Sabbat fan you'd knew that associating with humans and their agendas is beneath anyone in the sect. They are doing solely their own thing, unearthing ancient tombs and looking out for methuselahs' and their defenders' hideouts. If that suits their needs, they blend in with Daesh one night and with YPG the other; or, as an example from my own country, with LNR/DNR one night, Russian specops next, and UA marines the other night. Human agendas and motivations are nonsensical to Sabbat, as is the whole 'vampire ISIS' argument.





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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post

                            They went out of their way in Beckett's Jyhad Diary to remind players aiming to do Gehenna war chronicles that Sabbat does not give a heck about human conflicts, reason which led to them and does not fuel it. If you are a Sabbat fan you'd knew that associating with humans and their agendas is beneath anyone in the sect. They are doing solely their own thing, unearthing ancient tombs and looking out for methuselahs' and their defenders' hideouts. If that suits their needs, they blend in with Daesh one night and with YPG the other; or, as an example from my own country, with LNR/DNR one night, Russian specops next, and UA marines the other night. Human agendas and motivations are nonsensical to Sabbat, as is the whole 'vampire ISIS' argument.






                            Wish they had succeeded in making that clear...but they failed, totally and utterly. So yes 'Vampire ISIS' because that is what the books show us, they might be fighting a slightly different holy war, but they are just as mindless, just as nihilistic, just as shallow, just as dull, and the war is just as utterly, totally pointless, the books fail to show them as anything but animalistic sub sentient orcs.

                            They got ISIS, thought 'using that would be edgy' decided to turn the sabbat into mindless idiots, gut out most of the interesting parts, (those that didn't totally get removed from the system...so yes Paths are gone, their is no way at all that convictions can cover them, the entire system is to weak, and morally bankrupt to get near the total rigidity required), threw the bits of the sabbat they liked to the Cam and Anarchs.,,then off screened the rest.
                            Last edited by Taggie; 04-13-2020, 08:15 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                              Oh and the battle hardened veterans of 800 years lost, they are committing suicide by stupidity in the ME.

                              CTPhipps They lost because it's the World of Darkness and they were becoming monsters and psychopaths. That doesn't mean their story isn't interesting.
                              No book or info from V5 claims they've lost. Therefore this is also a speculation only. I'd rather have them 1) partially succeed 2) realize there's something even nastier than methuselahs and world's cainite elders rising from torpor so they go back to old domains they've abandoned to regroup/rethink strategy/bunker down against what's coming to them from war zones. What's coming for them is not going to spare any other kindred or cainite, so, more eldritch horrors stalking in the night.

                              Sabbat are finally doing the thing they were designed for 600 years ago. You see a failure, I see an opportunity. We will find out whether writers used it as a stupidity stone to destroy the sect after their book or more info on metaplot comes out. So far, nothing indicates they're losing.

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