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[V5] The Sabbat in V5

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  • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post

    if you mention you think Lilith should stay a myth here all the Bahari players will jump out of the woodwork to praise the night mother. It's not surprising you mention Buddha here. If first edition VTM came out touting Asura, Dharmas and Nirvana rather than Caine and Abel I'm confident we wouldn't have complaints about one religion pushing all others to the side; Buddhists are considered kind and peaceful, Modern Christians have a more controversial past (even though Jesus was insufferably nice, his early followers were kind, and Buddhists have plenty of dark history to read about if you ever looked beyond the Dalai lama and things to suck in tourists) . I think the issue with a lot of folks is more "I don't want a religion I don't like to be correct, but if it's a faith I see as harmless I'm ok with that"
    Well, obviously the Bahari are wrong because there's only one true faith and it involves copious amounts of Egyptomania and snake imagery

    Definitely. The grass is always greener. I simply used Buddhism as the example because KotE was in the discussion.
    But also because I don't like limits the amount of stories that can be told (without having to add the disclaimer "we're totally ignoring canon today," and possibly starting an argument about how the story is Wrong). And sometimes I just want to play an undead parasite without the crippling existential dread interrupting.

    -

    Also; If one takes the WoD as an Abrahamic setting, then I'd argue it doesn't belong to any of the faith's major modern religions, it makes Gnosticism the One True Faith. So the Gnostics are correct, "God" is false and evil and the goal of all beings is to escape the reality they live in. That fits fine with Wraith and Mage, for me, but what that makes Gaia and her kids, I don't know... the demiurge and her pet jailors? (Good news! The Followers of Set and Black Spiral Dancers are the heroes of the setting! There is a slight problem here!)
    Specificlly, the real life Cainites were probably correct in saying that Caine was the first victim of the Demiurge. May also imply that Caine was a holy rebel/chosen by the true divinity to defy and destroy the false, and vampires do have a holy purpose. Or did, and got corrupted.
    Last edited by Rhywbeth; 08-22-2021, 04:16 PM.

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    • Outside of Gehenna scenarios (which aren't canon) , everything about Caine, Lilith and the antes can be considered hearsay, myth, or delusion. No, You can't trust Fallen either.

      Now yes, the Gnostics are very probably correct, but if that's the case it's also true that the BSDs have been co-opted by a facet of creation, the "corrupt" Wyrm. Nephandi and BSDs might be silly evil, but that doesn't break reality, and both of these parties serve to thwart folks looking for some kind of Ascension/betterment of the world. Perhaps we'd do better in breaking out of the prison if we were healthier in the prison, who knows?


      Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
      There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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      • A lot of these ideas would also make for interesting belief systems for any mystically or philosophically inclined NPC's who need fleshing out.

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        • V5 kinda nips Gnosticism in the bud, as Generation no longer allows you transcend earthly limitations (IE get 6+ dots in things) which is key to the gnostic idea of Emanations. The part where you pick and choose powers, especially when it comes to thaumaturgy, rather than unlock a path that's always available to you if you spend the xp on it, also runs counter to gnostic ideas, because Gnosticism largely posits we all have equal divine potential. Then of course, the Settites/Church of Caine are reduced to joke cults, their philosophies both misunderstood and invalidated.


          Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
          There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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          • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
            V5 kinda nips Gnosticism in the bud, as Generation no longer allows you transcend earthly limitations (IE get 6+ dots in things) which is key to the gnostic idea of Emanations. The part where you pick and choose powers, especially when it comes to thaumaturgy, rather than unlock a path that's always available to you if you spend the xp on it, also runs counter to gnostic ideas, because Gnosticism largely posits we all have equal divine potential. Then of course, the Settites/Church of Caine are reduced to joke cults, their philosophies both misunderstood and invalidated.
            And yet because of Blood Potency, you just have to live longer rather than eat people.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

              And yet because of Blood Potency, you just have to live longer rather than eat people.
              This is not relevant at all


              Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
              There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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              • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                This is not relevant at all
                If your goal is Gnostic transcendence, I think it is.

                Mind you, I love the Church of Caine making gnosticism it's focus. It fits much better than with the Followers of Set.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • I think blood potence should've stayed Requiem's thing, but I wonder if it could have uses. Like, making your blood potency as high as possible thickens the blood to the point of lowering generation. Diablerie is far more useful for this. It's hard to survive that way and you need to do it for 1000 years just to go down one generation, so... You'd need artificial means to thicken the blood, and the only methods I remember are temporary in effect. Also the Antes would be 1st gen by now. Unless blood potency can also raise your generation...

                  Hmmm.... No, I'm thinking no. Not that way, anyway.
                  (Out of curiosity, are there any methods other than diablerie for lowering generation? (Other than a temporary lowering from blood magic))

                  Different topic, did the Church of Caine write up mention the actual Cainite gnostic heresy?
                  Last edited by Rhywbeth; 08-22-2021, 02:18 PM.

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                  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    If your goal is Gnostic transcendence, I think it is.

                    Mind you, I love the Church of Caine making gnosticism it's focus. It fits much better than with the Followers of Set.
                    So, little bit about me. An analogy if you will. When I was at school, I was good at maths. Perhaps because of that, and much to the chargrin of my teachers, I'd often neglect to show my workings. I'd usually get the answer right, but I'd lose marks because I usually didn't write the process unless the question was actually hard. I, being the foolhardy teen, was pretty adamant it was fine and that writing this stuff would just slow me down (also my handwriting is garbage)
                    But because of this, when i went wrong, I didn't know why, and the teachers didn't know why so they wouldn't explain it to me. Maybe I was out for the day or something, but I never learned what the Order of operations was, so I always thought 3+7x10 would be 100 ((3+7)x100) when it's 73 (3+(7x10)). I was an A-Grade student, yet something so fundamental as this escaped me.

                    I bring this up because, well, you've wrote down your answers, but I have no fucking clue how you could have possibly came to these answers.
                    Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 08-23-2021, 01:25 AM.


                    Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                    There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                    • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                      Maybe I was out for the day or something, but I never learned what the Order of operations was, so I always thought 7+3x10 would be 100 ((7+3)x100) when it's 73 (3+(7x10)). I was an A-Grade student, yet something so fundamental as this escaped me.
                      Pedantic point, but 7+3x10 is actually 37. The x10 is connected to the 3 and without parentheses you do all multiplication /division operations first from left to right followed by any addition/subtraction operations again from left to right.

                      This has been a pedantic post... we now return to our regular posting schedule.

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                      • Originally posted by Chris24601 View Post
                        Pedantic point, but 7+3x10 is actually 37. The x10 is connected to the 3 and without parentheses you do all multiplication /division operations first from left to right followed by any addition/subtraction operations again from left to right.

                        This has been a pedantic post... we now return to our regular posting schedule.
                        Clearly, I'm the victim of Divine retribution. I knew I was tempting fate when I wrote this.
                        Originally I wanted 37, then I realised I messed up with the orderings and so I went for 73, now I realized I didn't fix one of the equations and here you are...

                        Maybe things like this is part of the reason why I didn't like writing workings.
                        Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 08-22-2021, 04:26 PM.


                        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                        There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                        • Just a disclaimer, this a thread about Sabbat and now we are talking about math, lowering Generation, and Gnosticism. Somehow it seems a blog about Sabbat fledlings talking how much people they need, and if they should, to lower their Generation to X.


                          Strange... When coincidence seems too convenient, I prefer to call it fate.

                          -Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain d=

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                          • Mathematics allows humans to play god with the laws of science and has since early human history been involved in religous cults and occult fascination (and by that I mean I read about the pythagorean mathematikoi once and can't actually confirm that anybody else worshipped using maths (I believe I also read that pythagoreanism also had influence on gnosticism, but don't quote me on that)), clearly the path to Cainite dominance over the mortal cattle and the victory of the Sword of Caine against the ancients - and possibly the demiurge - is mathematics. There'll be a whole database and spreadsheets and stuff dedicated to comitting diablerie as effectively as possible to strengthen the crusade. Maybe a Path.

                            I can sort of see a scientific faction in/adjacent to the Sabbat and a mathematicism path existing, but hell if I know what it would involve.
                            Last edited by Rhywbeth; 08-22-2021, 06:23 PM.

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                            • I can see neonates insisting there must be a scientific explanation to whats happened to them, and a sort of neonate faction or cult trying to figure it out. The Cult of There Must Be a Rational Explanation for This.

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                              • Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
                                I can see neonates insisting there must be a scientific explanation to whats happened to them, and a sort of neonate faction or cult trying to figure it out. The Cult of There Must Be a Rational Explanation for This.
                                Most likely, but in this case I was thinking less "what happened to us" and more "how do we use mathematicism to break the code and unlock the full potential in the vampiric state and become blood gods, but the most effective blood gods possible."
                                Last edited by Rhywbeth; 08-22-2021, 06:17 PM.

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