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[V5] The Sabbat in V5

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  • Originally posted by Banu_Saulot View Post
    Just a disclaimer, this a thread about Sabbat and now we are talking about math, lowering Generation, and Gnosticism. Somehow it seems a blog about Sabbat fledlings talking how much people they need, and if they should, to lower their Generation to X.
    Eh, to be fair, the Sabbat religion includes Gnosticism (Path of Cathari) but I think Blood Gods has retconned it as just them stealing the religion of "Real" Caine worshipers.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • Originally posted by Banu_Saulot View Post
      Just a disclaimer, this a thread about Sabbat and now we are talking about math, lowering Generation, and Gnosticism. Somehow it seems a blog about Sabbat fledlings talking how much people they need, and if they should, to lower their Generation to X.
      You're right. I'm sorry for contributing to the derail.

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      • Originally posted by CTPhipps



        The problem is that's the premise. It's why I have a big issue with your take on the subject because it's basically not liking the premise and then having an issue that the premise is still the same 20 years later. Your objection is that you don't like Judeo-Christian vampires. Fine. But it's still, "I don't like the idea there's Castle Grayskull or He-Man in Masters of the Universe. Can we have a different protagonist?"

        It's the basis for the game. Just like animism as the basis for Werewolf, Celtic Mythology for Changeling, and Soliphism for Mage.

        Caine is the First Vampire.

        God is an asshole.

        That's the origin of vampires.

        Is it Judeo-Christianity specifically or do you object to animism in Werewolf being objectively true?
        It wasn't tho, originally it was the explanation that Cainites' had for what they were, but the KotE had a different one, and worked differently, the Werewolves had a different origin myth, and the Mages ? Wow they are a mess. That changed tho as the setting developed, and it became clear that it was zooming in on Cainites' being right...then DtF happened...I want everyone to be wrong....or for giggles the Nephandi to be right, I want Yama Kings fighting the Fallen, while the Destroyer Wyrm gets the popcorn in and waits to eat the winner, basically All Myths Are True

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        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          If your goal is Gnostic transcendence, I think it is.

          Mind you, I love the Church of Caine making gnosticism it's focus. It fits much better than with the Followers of Set.
          Blood Potency has the same issue as generation, you don't break that 5 point had ceiling.

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          • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

            Blood Potency has the same issue as generation, you don't break that 5 point had ceiling.
            I was wondering if he'd figure that out on his own or if someone'd have to point it out. It's a little hard to tell given how often he changes topics and doesn't seem to notice when the majority has a different viewpoint.

            "want to break free from your earthly shackles? Just.... Live longer..."
            How is that Gnostic?


            Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
            There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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            • Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
              I can see neonates insisting there must be a scientific explanation to whats happened to them, and a sort of neonate faction or cult trying to figure it out. The Cult of There Must Be a Rational Explanation for This.

              I think there is a science explanation. The thing about science is that it'll be progressing till we know everything, and if magic exists, then it's science's job to map out how and why magic works (and then it's an engineer's job to make working devices that incorporate magical elements)

              What if the Tremere are gated in the Sabbat for being too rational?


              Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
              There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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              • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                I was wondering if he'd figure that out on his own or if someone'd have to point it out. It's a little hard to tell given how often he changes topics and doesn't seem to notice when the majority has a different viewpoint.

                "want to break free from your earthly shackles? Just.... Live longer..."
                How is that Gnostic?
                You mentioned Generation as a glass ceiling so it was literally in response to you.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                  You mentioned Generation as a glass ceiling so it was literally in response to you.
                  1 It is still a glass ceiling, you just have more room
                  2 you have yet to explain why that's related to Gnosticism.


                  Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                  There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                  • Originally posted by Reasor View Post

                    You're right. I'm sorry for contributing to the derail.
                    No dude, I didn't mean to say we were derailing, I just thought it was a funny ramification of the topic. Like "look where we started and where we are now".
                    I'm certain pack Ductus or Priest keep a tab of every member's B.Potency and Generation and form meetings about that: "Man... John is legging behind, Mike and Mary are already about 10th Gen, probably some 4th degree of blood thickness, me (Priest) and you (Ductus) are already at the 5th one; we gotta find some elder jerk to pump John up."


                    Strange... When coincidence seems too convenient, I prefer to call it fate.

                    -Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain d=

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                    • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                      1 It is still a glass ceiling, you just have more room
                      2 you have yet to explain why that's related to Gnosticism.
                      You were the one who brought up Gnotisicism?

                      So I don't understand.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                        You were the one who brought up Gnotisicism?

                        So I don't understand.

                        Right. I'll make this short because I got to go to bed/Easy to understand because we've gone in circles.

                        Orthadox VTM has mechanics that legitimize Gnosticism, and thus legitimizes the FoS/CoCaine
                        1 The Generations below 8 let you move beyond the mundane 5 dot limit of Humans. This is important in Gnosticism, as an Emanation will come in to reality, become more mundane over time (Each gen is weaker than the last) and then turn around and reach back towards divinity when it's at a low point (diablerie)
                        2- The first 5 dots of disciplines are static, because they are mundane and set by a higher power, whilst the trancendent powers let you pick and choose.
                        3- Everyone can learn everything (with enough XP) because really, all souls are equal and originally knew everything, but the material world has blocked their knowledge and they just can't use the knowledge without experience. Nothing is locked out. Everyone is capabe of anything.

                        As a result of all this, Eating your way up is like challenging God.

                        V5
                        1- Generation just influences blood potency. Blood potency just lets you heal easily and makes you hungrier. There's nothing profound there.
                        2- You'll get a few bonus die for disciplines with blood potency, but you can never become a better person (6+ intelligence isn't an option)
                        3-well 3 ain't happening anymore

                        As a result of this, eating your way up is... well you just wanted a quick and dirty shortcut to power. You fell to temptation. Now food satisfies you less, because being naughty needs to have conseqeunces.

                        The FoS/CoC faith is just... faith. There's nothing backing it up. And the Sabbat are farcically silly because the Antes can't possibly be the blood gods promised.
                        Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 08-24-2021, 05:04 PM.


                        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                        There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                        • To go back on topic; I really, really, want to know how they're going to fix the Sabbat after they've truncated it this badly this 5th edition. The upcoming Sabbat book is probably going to be a disaster and just going to be a long written flimsy justification for why the Sabbat lost the majority of their North American holdings, lost to the Anarchs wholesale with no explanation despite the Sabbat having tons of Jyhad and combat experience and were only ever being matched by the Camarilla, and why Sabbat fans should suddenly all accept this unwarranted erasure/lowballing of the Sabbat from the game.

                          It's just crazy to me that they thought taking out a major Sect to the game and franchise would be a good idea at all, especially for the newest edition that was supposed be the modern debut for VTM. Now they're scrambling to make this book and probably only for the fact enough fans obviously complained about the absence of the Sabbat. Not only that, they already fudged up the Tzimisce and Lasombra (essentially the defacto leaders of the Sabbat, like how the Venture are the defacto leaders of the Camarilla) to almost irreparable margins.

                          Tzimisce have gone from being interesting Lovecraftian-inspired fleshbender sages of ancient nobility, to a lazy "MUH DRAGON" tenement landlord hoarding middlemen-tier peons.

                          Lasombra have been relegated to scared lil' toady kids who have hightailed it to the Camarilla en masse, despite all previous lore, clan lore, and mechanics being against such a thing, to now be the bitchboys for the Venture.

                          I'm just thankful I'm not one of these types who pigeonhole themselves to one gameline, but I'm worried about the other gamelines tbh.


                          Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                          • I'm far from thinking they butchered anything here in V5. Sabbat felt a bit too open and cosmopolitan for me in V3 and V4, so seeing them go back to a more obscure and dangerous group for me it's awesome, and I can't wait to see the book. If they just made what the last editions did, with no changes, it would be a re-release, and not something worthy of being called a new edition. But, the degree of how much I'm not using past material but only the current one shows (to me) how much it is working as a new edition (for me).
                            So yeah, I'm not all ihaaa, everything is perfect and to my liking, but I'm sure as hell happy and excited to what is coming. Just wish there was more. Problem with keeping things a mystery and secret is when you do it too much, and the game needs those information for chronicles to run smoothly. Only the lack of structure and visibility of how some things work in the setting, especially with the changes, is something I'm always in a low but constant bump about... Like, a couple of pages on Ravnos and Salubri, and not much to go on with the Lasombra besides one big thing, really makes it hard to use the Clans nicely. But only with new books may I see things more clearly.


                            Strange... When coincidence seems too convenient, I prefer to call it fate.

                            -Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain d=

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                            • Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                              To go back on topic; I really, really, want to know how they're going to fix the Sabbat after they've truncated it this badly this 5th edition. The upcoming Sabbat book is probably going to be a disaster and just going to be a long written flimsy justification for why the Sabbat lost the majority of their North American holdings, lost to the Anarchs wholesale with no explanation despite the Sabbat having tons of Jyhad and combat experience and were only ever being matched by the Camarilla, and why Sabbat fans should suddenly all accept this unwarranted erasure/lowballing of the Sabbat from the game.
                              The Anarchs were always the ones fighting the war with the exception of Karsh and a handful of Archons.

                              The Anarchs defended their cities and loved ones.

                              The Camarilla threw Neonates at the Sabbat.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                The Anarchs were always the ones fighting the war with the exception of Karsh and a handful of Archons.

                                The Anarchs defended their cities and loved ones.

                                The Camarilla threw Neonates at the Sabbat.

                                The Anarchs were essentially the neutrals and rarely engaged with the Sabbat. Half the time they were given pittance quasi-autonomous domains inside Camarilla domains or had a few whole cities to themselves, but again, mostly stuck to themselves. Most of the night-by-night shadow combat was almost always between the Camarilla and the Sabbat. It was totally BS'd on how the Anarchs suddenly just took Sabbat territory willy-nilly, in the lazy agenda-like fashion it was done in.

                                The majority of the metaplot decisions done in V5 have seemingly been driven by pure agenda than anything else:

                                Let's finally break up the Tremere! Oh, and let's have be done where they are taken out by a common drone-strike, to a mobile magically enchanted facility that can only be percepted by either other supernaturals or only supernaturals with the right prerequisite magics to even perceive it!

                                Oh, let's be anti-fun and unoriginal, and put all the unique Necromancer bloodlines into what could have worked awesomely as an actual NEW Sect into VTM with all the constituent Clans getting to keep their unique mechanics and individual lores; but no, put it as a Clan but call it a "Sect" but at the same time make everything about it a bland Giovanni 2.0 where the furthest you'll get with uniqueness to it would be in the sewn together mechanic called a "Loresheet".

                                Let's finally get rid of those Elders! Boo-ho the part of the fanbase that actually uses Elders for their games, now we can make up a totally inane reason to COMPLETELY take them out the game (who thought was a good idea.. AT ALL??) and let's put them in a non-elaborated offscreen event in the Middle-East called the "Beckoning". Doubly awkward for anyone who on the off-chance who'd want to do a chronicle in the Middle-East and would have to make a significant homebrew metaplot in an attempt to explain the "Beckoning" themselves. Also, don't even elaborate on the ramifications of ALL the Elders of Vampiredom going to the Middle-East at all and continue on the nu-metaplot as if it isn't significant (i.e Anchillae all over suddenly becoming Princes, multiple young Neonates being completely unguided when especially in danger with the Second Inquisition about, the general collapse of Kindred society as the delicate connections the Elders kept up suddenly deteriorate, etc).. Now we also can mantle up an excuse to take out Elder Disciplines as well in this same breadth too!

                                Let's take the Followers of Set and completely evangelize them, make them into the "Megachurch-Christian" archetype instead of the much more interesting "Egypt-Dark-Underworld-Conspiracy" Cult one. Oh and let's shove them into the Anarchs for literally no reason, despite the foremost policy of the Followers of Set was to always stay independent and play off the multiple main players in the Jyhad.

                                It's just really weird with how VTM is going nowadays.
                                Last edited by Shakanaka; 08-27-2021, 05:26 PM.


                                Jade Kingdom Warrior

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