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[V5] The Sabbat in V5

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Taggie View Post



    Wish they had succeeded in making that clear...but they failed, totally and utterly. So yes 'Vampire ISIS' because that is what the books show us, they might be fighting a slightly different holy war, but they are just as mindless, just as nihilistic, just as shallow, just as dull, and the war is just as utterly, totally pointless

    That's kind of your opinion, man. They succeeded in making it clear to me, so, maybe the problem is not with them?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post

      I disagree. Sabbat need their own cities because only in their own cities is path-exploration really possible. In order to have stories where path exploration is paramount, you need a certain level of stability and peace and control. Can't really become a Path Paragon while doing spy stuff.
      Good point, I guess their 'new' domains are now more subtle, less overtly Sabbat in the classical sense of the word, and depict the geographical shift. Less NA Canada, more SA, MENA, EE. Maybe even India and other parts of Africa. All places across the globe gripped by conflict and turmoil.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

        I think the Sabbat as described here are a much more interesting group. They're no longer a single unified group but a potentially large number of allied sects that are carrying out a mysterious and occult agenda that the Camarilla as well as Anarchs don't understand. The Seven Fires are The Midwest Sabbat so to speak and can be developed on their own so that locals can potentially either defeat or deal with on a more managable level. It's a mini-Sabbat and how the game can develop other mini-Sabbats are intriguing to me.
        I don't find incoherent marauding bands of occult-deranged-slightly-more-violent Anarchs being interesting, to be honest. I admit the Sabbat of old had that flavor, especially in Revised, but the whole 'maniac nomad' shtick is of zero interest or appeal to me.

        I do think that Lucita should be behind the defection to the Camarilla, though. Sabbat Lucita just feels like a generic Lasombra woman while her entire thing is she's a rebel against Elder control ala the Anarchs. I was upset when they killed Carolina Valez, though.

        She was one of my favorites from Montreal by night.
        Giving Lucita to the Sabbat and then immediately taking her back because of 'rule of the cool' and the vampire metaplot superstars having be more accessible to and reachable by Anarch/Cama players is unfair and weird given Lucita's stern character - she's not the one to opt in an out during the course of a few decades. Also, so far that's just a speculation.

        Damn, they removed Carolina, after all. Yes, I liked the concept of a Moderate Lasombra who is following Honorable accord and is not a power-hungry scheming schemer like the core of the clan.
        Well, that's sad.

        I also like that the Sabbat have realized they don't need to hold territory and that such a thing just makes them a cheap imitation of the Camarilla. Instead, they're living under fake identities and the margins of their enemies' own. They are immune to the Inquisition now because they simply take what they need and become a nightmare that the locals are terrified of.
        They encroached on Camarilla territory but incorporating more elements of it into Sabbat made it more believable. Again, the whole 'roving terror freak circus' thing may be appealing to some players but not to me. Personally, I would like it to be one of the options available so everyone gets their share of the sect they wanted to play. 'My' Sabbat would be more regimented, disiplined and inhumanly pragmatic.
        Last edited by Val_Nir; 04-13-2020, 08:43 AM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post


          That's kind of your opinion, man. They succeeded in making it clear to me, so, maybe the problem is not with them?


          I meant 'ISIS but fighting 'for caine'' not that the Sabbat were AQ inspired loons.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Taggie View Post

            I meant 'ISIS but fighting 'for caine'' not that the Sabbat were AQ inspired loons.
            That depends on what you put under 'ISIS'. If you mean 'ruthless radical religious zealots' well, I have some news for you. That was one of their core aspects since Anarch Revolt, for some, even prior to that - see Dastur Anosh and the Lost Tribe.

            The whole 'Sabbat is ISIS' is something which saw common use only after ISIS appeared which happened long after ppl played Sabbat in WoD fictional game. Indiscriminate use of real world stuff in order to simplify and generalize is a bad thing on it's own. I'd rather advise to abstain from using it completely.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Taggie View Post
              It's simple, they handed the Sabbat the idiot ball, made them fracture for an incomprehensible reason, gutted the systems that supported Paths, and shipped off some serious numbers to the Anarchs, because they hate anyone who wants to play an none Anarchs game, that is the Devs plan, pure and simple, Anarchs have to win everything for zero effort because they are the master sect, and if you enjoy any other type of game they don't want you in the community, they will however use just enough marketing to delude you into buying books, but you aren't really wanted, the desecration of Masquerade with the utter garbage of Requiem, shows that, a system that has no good ideas at all, yet is being forced in VtM. The horrible Potency system, teh sickening local focus. , The disgusting mutilated version of d10, the nauseating version of humanity, all the utter failure and rot stuffed in, to a fan base that had already rejected it.
              Instead of nerdrage on how the authors are bad because they allegedly mistreated your favorite part of the game you'd better contribute to the thread with your ideas where you see or want to see the sect given the obvious information gap on them which we can fill with our speculations, headcanon or desired outcomes.

              Let your imagination run wild. Maybe they re-introduce the paths. Maybe they split the sect in two. Maybe they split the game in two! and make the Sabbat a separate supplement/splat for those who want to deal with supernatural only, abandoning 'street level'? Maybe they bring back the 2ed roving Sabbat. Maybe they make them humane and holy defenders of both Kindred and kine against Antediluvian horrors. Maybe they make them a Baali Azaneali or Baali Molochim? Maybe they make it a Lancea et Sanctum or Devil-Tigers or get mindwarped by Constantinople's Trinity and Mikhail himself and start rebuilding the Dream somewhere? Who the hell knows.

              Let's chill and look into the future rather than root for sects like they are football teams (they are not).

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post

                That depends on what you put under 'ISIS'. If you mean 'ruthless radical religious zealots' well, I have some news for you. That was one of their core aspects since Anarch Revolt, for some, even prior to that - see Dastur Anosh and the Lost Tribe.

                The whole 'Sabbat is ISIS' is something which saw common use only after ISIS appeared which happened long after ppl played Sabbat in WoD fictional game. Indiscriminate use of real world stuff in order to simplify and generalize is a bad thing on it's own. I'd rather advise to abstain from using it completely.


                They always were ruthless religious zealots, they used to be a combination of a cult and a militia, with added aspects of a knightly order. Now they are 'religious zealots fighting to destroy everything that came before them, calling foreign fighters into a conflagration in the middle east, while throwing aside more orthodox interpretations of their doctorine and killing/exiling the moderates' they have picked up ISIS themes wholesale.

                Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post

                Instead of nerdrage on how the authors are bad because they allegedly mistreated your favorite part of the game you'd better contribute to the thread with your ideas where you see or want to see the sect given the obvious information gap on them which we can fill with our speculations, headcanon or desired outcomes.

                Let your imagination run wild. Maybe they re-introduce the paths. Maybe they split the sect in two. Maybe they split the game in two! and make the Sabbat a separate supplement/splat for those who want to deal with supernatural only, abandoning 'street level'? Maybe they bring back the 2ed roving Sabbat. Maybe they make them humane and holy defenders of both Kindred and kine against Antediluvian horrors. Maybe they make them a Baali Azaneali or Baali Molochim? Maybe they make it a Lancea et Sanctum or Devil-Tigers or get mindwarped by Constantinople's Trinity and Mikhail himself and start rebuilding the Dream somewhere? Who the hell knows.

                Let's chill and look into the future rather than root for sects like they are football teams (they are not).

                Well, they would need a ground up rebuild of the morality system, with Tenets removed totally, at least 10 binding convictions, the removal of touchstones as a concept entirely and hunger downplayed massively as a theme. What I want is the massive territorial power the Sabbat used to be, with the 2e everyone is on a path system so we can get back to the Cam vs Sabbat vs Cathyan wars, those clashes of ideologies, philosophies and strategies that those conflicts were at their best.
                Last edited by Taggie; 04-13-2020, 09:27 AM.

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                • #23
                  I wonder what was their rationale in removing the Sabbat from V5 anyway.. It makes no sense.. I understand they wanted V5 to be a little "lite" to get "new blood" in the series, but removing the Sabbat from being playable make no sense at all. Their already established, why go to such lengths with them? Not only make them not playable, but sabotage them down to irrelevance which made no sense. Why all of this?


                  Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                    They always were ruthless religious zealots, they used to be a combination of a cult and a militia, with added aspects of a knightly order. Now they are 'religious zealots fighting to destroy everything that came before them, calling foreign fighters into a conflagration in the middle east, while throwing aside more orthodox interpretations of their doctorine and killing/exiling the moderates' they have picked up ISIS themes wholesale.
                    You are warping definitions to play up your personal vision of the state of things. 'fighting to destroy everything that came before them' is nonsensical, they left for MENA to fight in the Gehenna war. What is that which 'came before them' they are destroying?
                    'Calling foreign fighters into a conflalgration' - I see what you're doing, stretching ISIS themes onto Sabbat to support your view; guess what, not going to work - Sabbat did not call any foreign fighters from other sects, they rather became even more secluded. If you mean 'ME Sabbat called upon the main sect' that's nonsense - Sabbat was near non-existent in ME and the whole premise of the V5 is that the bulk of the sect which left for the war did it from NA/Mexico - there is zero word they were 'called upon by their comrades'. They started departing for the war over there long before ISIS was formed and became a thing.
                    'Throwing aside more orthodox interpretations' - again, trying to fit a real world issue onto an extremely vaguely outlined state of a fictional unhuman organization. Sabbat's orthodox interpretations are what fueled the gehenna crusade in the first place. The premise of Revised/V20/V5 is that the sect forgot it's true purpose and now they are finally going back to what they were designed for.
                    "killing/exiling the moderates" - there is zero evidence they are doing that, that's rather my personal view of how it'd play out after Lasombra defection. In the first place, the moderates are the ones who leave on their own w/o waiting for someone to kill or exile them.
                    All wrong. No "ISIS themes" picked.

                    Well, they would need a ground up rebuild of the morality system, with Tenets removed totally, at least 10 binding convictions, the removal of touchstones as a concept entirely and hunger downplayed massively as a theme. What I want is the massive territorial power the Sabbat used to be, with the 2e everyone is on a path system so we can get back to the Cam vs Sabbat vs Cathyan wars, those clashes of ideologies, philosophies and strategies that those conflicts were at their best.
                    I wholeheartedly agree on Paths and Tenets; hunger theme can be mitigated by the introduction of religious and occult practics like fasting or battle trance or something like that. Borrow something interesting from Theban sorcery rites.
                    Touchstones are a nice roleplaying tool for Sabbat once you don't have humans as them; just transfer them to vampires/revenants and be done with it.

                    Rebuilding said territorial power instead of simply giving it back feels more compelling and interesting. You have to fight for your 'good old' Montreal or Philadelphia, now it's even more interesting because you are toughened up by decades of supernatural warfare and you have only the most devoted beside you.

                    Camarilla is too much in hiding and does not pose a major threat anymore; real threat are 1) Second Inquisition 2) allegedly awakened Antes and their 4th gen progeny 3) Anarchs, to a lesser extent. Also, I guess Tal'Mahe'Ra will now replace Camarilla as Sabbat's arch enemy since "those pesky fanatics dared to raise their hands on sacred Patriarchs themselves!".
                    Even BJD implies we can't go back to the Sabbat's state of things pre-Crusade; it - and new Regent - change things forever. It's up to you to either return Sabbat to 2ed, to Revised or forge something entirely different.

                    Btw, who would you make the new Regent given the info from BJD candidacies? Obviously, Galbraith is gone. Who would you replace her with?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                      I wonder what was their rationale in removing the Sabbat from V5 anyway.. It makes no sense.. I understand they wanted V5 to be a little "lite" to get "new blood" in the series, but removing the Sabbat from being playable make no sense at all. Their already established, why go to such lengths with them? Not only make them not playable, but sabotage them down to irrelevance which made no sense. Why all of this?
                      I am honestly surprised that the V5 Sabbat guide was taken down. It was on the schedule before it got removed so something happened there.

                      Both it and The Second Inquisition were both sourcebooks that were initially supposed to be done.

                      Originally posted by Taggie
                      When they Sabbat was an attempt at a post human morality, dressed in religious garb to try and hide it's hypocrisy, they worked, a union of self proclaimed philosophers and zealots with a nest of barely contained utterly inhuman rabble behind them, barely contained by half understood paths had no real world parrelels, didn't make unfortunate implications on a massive scale, and was an interesting sand box to play in, it got less so the less central 'everyone has to be on a path' became.
                      I think there's a certain irony that we DO see the Sabbat's Mass Embraces in the Middle East. Fatima al Faqadi goes to kill a bunch of US troopers Embraced by the Sabbat. The Sabbat=US military in the Middle East is an interesting twist on it as they are the best armed forces you will have to fight the Ancients. It's also incredibly stupid and dangerous to Embrace them.
                      Last edited by CTPhipps; 04-13-2020, 10:50 AM.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                        I wonder what was their rationale in removing the Sabbat from V5 anyway.. It makes no sense.. I understand they wanted V5 to be a little "lite" to get "new blood" in the series, but removing the Sabbat from being playable make no sense at all. Their already established, why go to such lengths with them? Not only make them not playable, but sabotage them down to irrelevance which made no sense. Why all of this?

                        The short answer is "It's 1ed all over again" and the problem is not in removing the Sabbat; the problem is in removing almost 90% of the metaplot.

                        While the reasons for it are a subject of discussions, the outcome is certain - no metaplot means no Sabbat. Once you delve into the sect even from the lowest sect member POV, you inevitable open a Pandora's box of metaplot stories. Antediluvians, sects, subsects, elders, methuselahs, Dark ages origins, Roads and Paths... It'd be overwhelming for the "fresh blood".
                        Hopefully, we come a full circle and the metaplot - and Sabbat with it - is opened up in the nearest years

                        Remember what a tremendous amount of writing and research they needed to collect all dots of the metaplot in BJD? Now, if they do a Sabbat book they'll have to move that juggernaut of a story forward somehow. Not an easy feat.
                        Last edited by Val_Nir; 04-13-2020, 11:20 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post
                          The short answer is "It's 1ed all over again" and the problem is not in removing the Sabbat; the problem is in removing almost 90% of the metaplot.
                          V20 had no Metaplot whatsoever until BJD remade it then V5 jumped ahead with a lot of it.

                          While the reasons for it are a subject of discussions, the outcome is certain - no metaplot means no Sabbat. Once you delve into the sect even from the lowest sect member POV, you inevitable open a Pandora's box of metaplot stories. Antediluvians, sects, subsects, elders, methuselahs, Dark ages origins, Roads and Paths... It'd be overwhelming for the "fresh blood".
                          Hopefully, we come a full circle and the metaplot - and Sabbat with it - is opened up in the nearest years

                          Remember what a tremendous amount of writing and research they needed to collect all dots of the metaplot in BJD? Now, if they do a Sabbat book they'll have to move that juggernaut of a story forward somehow. Not an easy fit.
                          My assumption is that the Sabbat actually got delayed because they wanted to figure out a good way of getting them into the game world. They're running a bit behind, IMHO, in release schedules as they're introducing a lot of things but haven't yet really managed to get them all settled. I wouldn't be surprised if they're saving the Sabbat for their own year. The real question is whether we're going to see the Sabbat in Bloodlines 2, which will give us a sense of what the Sabbat are up to.

                          I think they're probably the people behind the Thin Blood Mass Embrace.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                            I think there's a certain irony that we DO see the Sabbat's Mass Embraces in the Middle East. Fatima al Faqadi goes to kill a bunch of US troopers Embraced by the Sabbat. The Sabbat=US military in the Middle East is an interesting twist on it as they are the best armed forces you will have to fight the Ancients. It's also incredibly stupid and dangerous to Embrace them.
                            As I mentioned earlier, Sabbat is not =any fighting side in MENA. Portraying them as such is extremely dangerous from any given perspective.
                            They do not engage in mortal fights. They parasitize on them. I guess this should be written in extra huge letters across the first page of a would-be Sabbat book. They embrace USMC tonight, then tomorrow, Daesh, then, YPG, then private military contractors - whoever gets in their way and is seen as a valid resource in the holy war.
                            Utilizing the vehicles and tech or manipulating kine into striking where you need it, is kind of an obvious choice. How do you soften up an entrenched methuselah and his cronies? Running a bayonet attack? Or maybe howitzer salvo/drone strike is a better choice?

                            My assumption is that the Sabbat actually got delayed because they wanted to figure out a good way of getting them into the game world. They're running a bit behind, IMHO, in release schedules as they're introducing a lot of things but haven't yet really managed to get them all settled. I wouldn't be surprised if they're saving the Sabbat for their own year. The real question is whether we're going to see the Sabbat in Bloodlines 2, which will give us a sense of what the Sabbat are up to.
                            My guess too. Because of both metaplot and 'alternative morality' mechanics reasons, I think.

                            Introducing them in B2 was one of my suggestions too. Either a plot tool or a later DLC. Probably both.
                            Bloodlines have brought untold numbers of new players into the fold back in the day; like any PC/console game does for any RPG setting. It'd be nice to have the Sword there along the way.

                            I think they're probably the people behind the Thin Blood Mass Embrace.
                            Well, that's interesting already. Making them much more subtle and clandestine is probably the only visible, articulated change I welcome.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post

                              1)You are warping definitions to play up your personal vision of the state of things. 'fighting to destroy everything that came before them' is nonsensical, they left for MENA to fight in the Gehenna war. What is that which 'came before them' they are destroying?
                              'Calling foreign fighters into a conflalgration' - I see what you're doing, stretching ISIS themes onto Sabbat to support your view; guess what, not going to work - Sabbat did not call any foreign fighters from other sects, they rather became even more secluded. If you mean 'ME Sabbat called upon the main sect' that's nonsense - Sabbat was near non-existent in ME and the whole premise of the V5 is that the bulk of the sect which left for the war did it from NA/Mexico - there is zero word they were 'called upon by their comrades'. They started departing for the war over there long before ISIS was formed and became a thing.
                              2)'Throwing aside more orthodox interpretations' - again, trying to fit a real world issue onto an extremely vaguely outlined state of a fictional unhuman organization. Sabbat's orthodox interpretations are what fueled the gehenna crusade in the first place. The premise of Revised/V20/V5 is that the sect forgot it's true purpose and now they are finally going back to what they were designed for.
                              "killing/exiling the moderates" - there is zero evidence they are doing that, that's rather my personal view of how it'd play out after Lasombra defection. In the first place, the moderates are the ones who leave on their own w/o waiting for someone to kill or exile them.
                              All wrong. No "ISIS themes" picked.



                              3)I wholeheartedly agree on Paths and Tenets; hunger theme can be mitigated by the introduction of religious and occult practics like fasting or battle trance or something like that. Borrow something interesting from Theban sorcery rites.
                              Touchstones are a nice roleplaying tool for Sabbat once you don't have humans as them; just transfer them to vampires/revenants and be done with it.

                              4)Rebuilding said territorial power instead of simply giving it back feels more compelling and interesting. You have to fight for your 'good old' Montreal or Philadelphia, now it's even more interesting because you are toughened up by decades of supernatural warfare and you have only the most devoted beside you.

                              Camarilla is too much in hiding and does not pose a major threat anymore; real threat are 1) Second Inquisition 2) allegedly awakened Antes and their 4th gen progeny 3) Anarchs, to a lesser extent. Also, I guess Tal'Mahe'Ra will now replace Camarilla as Sabbat's arch enemy since "those pesky fanatics dared to raise their hands on sacred Patriarchs themselves!".
                              Even BJD implies we can't go back to the Sabbat's state of things pre-Crusade; it - and new Regent - change things forever. It's up to you to either return Sabbat to 2ed, to Revised or forge something entirely different.

                              5)Btw, who would you make the new Regent given the info from BJD candidacies? Obviously, Galbraith is gone. Who would you replace her with?
                              1)Interpretation, so ok we don't know enough

                              2) We lost the Loyalists to the Anarchs and the Lasombra to the Cam, that reeks of anyone not on the Crusader end of the spectrum being purged, either directly or by intimidation/threats, and is an extremely stupid thing to do.

                              3)Touchstones feel like horribly forced morality chains, Path should be a personal quest, not bound by plot tokens or with values dictated by ST fiat.

                              4)They should never have been made so cataclysmic stupid as to give it up in the first place. I want that retgone.
                              Last edited by Taggie; 04-13-2020, 11:28 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post


                                I think there's a certain irony that we DO see the Sabbat's Mass Embraces in the Middle East. Fatima al Faqadi goes to kill a bunch of US troopers Embraced by the Sabbat. The Sabbat=US military in the Middle East is an interesting twist on it as they are the best armed forces you will have to fight the Ancients. It's also incredibly stupid and dangerous to Embrace them.
                                Incredibly stupid sums up every Sabbat decision we know about. Also mass embrace is not the same as 'everyone on the Paths'

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