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[V5] The Sabbat in V5

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  • Yes, Nines was there because at that moment, the Anarchs and Cam were at a tenuous peace. The Anarchs are at this point vocal opposition, not combatants. Abrams still, it seems, recognizes Lacroix's right to administer places that aren't his Abrams'. domain. As for shitting on the prince speeches? That's likely because he doesn't like the guy, doesn't like people screwing with his domain, and because if you don't constantly assert your rights you'll often lose them.


    Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
    There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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    • Talking about Bloodlines... it does make me think it worked into V5 a lot. I mean, we start with 7 Clans (no caitiff and thinbloods though), playable Anarchs and Camarilla.... Sabbat as antagonistic. Beckett helping us understand somethings lol
      Except that Humanity in Bloodlines is kind of ... just there. You kill half the city, guards, security and whatnot, and yet Humanity is 10 (Toreadors are all Golconda-bound here).

      And people will want (as they did) to mod Sabbat and antitribu in the game too


      Strange... When coincidence seems too convenient, I prefer to call it fate.

      -Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain d=

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      • Originally posted by Banu_Saulot View Post
        Talking about Bloodlines... it does make me think it worked into V5 a lot. I mean, we start with 7 Clans (no caitiff and thinbloods though), playable Anarchs and Camarilla.... Sabbat as antagonistic. Beckett helping us understand somethings lol
        Except that Humanity in Bloodlines is kind of ... just there. You kill half the city, guards, security and whatnot, and yet Humanity is 10 (Toreadors are all Golconda-bound here).

        And people will want (as they did) to mod Sabbat and antitribu in the game too
        Yeah and it very obviously influenced V5's Humanity.

        In Bloodlines, you have the Chronicle Tenet of, "Do not kill INNOCENTS" vs. "Do not Kill" and it works much better.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          Yeah and it very obviously influenced V5's Humanity.

          In Bloodlines, you have the Chronicle Tenet of, "Do not kill INNOCENTS" vs. "Do not Kill" and it works much better.
          And that, right there is why I actually like Paths and dislike Humanity, you want to hold onto Humanity? It should be hard (same as walking a Path should be, for different reasons, if it isn't, think about the Path more, because either you are missing something or it isn't well written ) you want to kill bad people? So does the beast, and it will help you, for a price. Don't duck out of it, or make the horrific touchstones system, suck it up and admit avoiding wassail restricts you, and you cannot subcontract self control on to pets/punchbags
          Last edited by Taggie; 08-31-2021, 05:17 PM.

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          • The thing is that killing bad people is wrong. It is fun to do in most games, but is wrong. And psychologically taxing. And the Personal Horror aspect of the game relies on this. The game isn't wrong in making killing bad people a sin, it is right.

            If at your table you want to have fun going for the bad people with violence, it is completely ok for the ST to change this rule, but it simply isn't the premise of this game.

            Now, I do agree that THIS aspect of V5 I liked. Humanity works on whatever you want your chronicle to revolve around. This is good, broadens the options for stories and play styles a lot. But there is nothing wrong with the idea of the Beast feeding on your self-righteousness to justify killing.


            #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
            #AutismPride
            She/her pronouns

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            • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post

              Now, I do agree that THIS aspect of V5 I liked. Humanity works on whatever you want your chronicle to revolve around. This is good, broadens the options for stories and play styles a lot. But there is nothing wrong with the idea of the Beast feeding on your self-righteousness to justify killing.
              More or less... Remember you gain auto-stain no matter your chronicle tenet for things like embrance someone, Dominate 5 to make someone KT, Blood Sorcery 5, create a ghoul, kill/hurt your touchstone, etc.

              And with diablerie, you lose 1~2 points of humanity no matter what bulls and hot air you and the fellow players try to push with Chronicle Tenents, convictions etc.

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              • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                The thing is that killing bad people is wrong. It is fun to do in most games, but is wrong. And psychologically taxing. And the Personal Horror aspect of the game relies on this. The game isn't wrong in making killing bad people a sin, it is right.

                If at your table you want to have fun going for the bad people with violence, it is completely ok for the ST to change this rule, but it simply isn't the premise of this game.

                Now, I do agree that THIS aspect of V5 I liked. Humanity works on whatever you want your chronicle to revolve around. This is good, broadens the options for stories and play styles a lot. But there is nothing wrong with the idea of the Beast feeding on your self-righteousness to justify killing.
                It's the premise of the game if the game says otherwise.

                I think this makes the game much more free and customizable to Storytellers.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • Yep, the new morality system has much more mechanic maluses than the previous one. Sure killing while Humanity would net some rolls, but it isn't hard-fast for such a thing to occur since its purely up to the ST for a degradation check to happen; so if the ST is doing a chronicle that is explicitly action/intrigue oriented instead of the melodramatic "personal horror" bit people like to drone on about, the chronicle can go as-is without any disruption to flow of it. Even better if the players have an option to at least transition to Paths, so the ST doesn't have to go the route of ignoring the morality system to allow some killing in the game to occur.

                  Now with this new Touchstone-Stain morality paradigm, it has stuff like what blailton mentions that can't be avoided no matter what you can do.


                  Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                  • I try not to bother much talking about thigs I don't use in-game, and Touchstone is one of those, which is a shame, but well, V4- chronicles weren't meant to have them, so I let the PCs have one single boundless Conviction and not have a Touchstone (only if they wanted). Most are a bit carefree I guess, and didn't even bothered much with coming up with one, just as Ambition. Only one player cared to make all of this, but she excels at surprising me and making the game about stories and not the points and optimal victory (which isn't my sole style, but my preferred one), but since she is the only one who invests in Backgrounds and is social she probably will end up the top dog, or not, who knows. We are playing Transylvania Chronicles (part 1 yet, and we already finished Giovanni Chronicles Part 1), and V5 is acting splendidly, and except of Thouchstones (that with the amount of travelling and time skips is kind of impossible without much hassle, and it isn't the focus on the chronicle), we are using everything available in the game, and my group in particular think V5 is a great improvement in the early editions, and half played since 2nd, with the other since the 3rd. But the thing is, Humanity is working very nicely, and Stains form an excellent way to do sins and whatnot. Sometimes the players even offer to eat up a Stain as a Messy Critical or Success with a Cost, because they are using for roleplaying and character development and it is awesome.

                    Thing is, with the Tenets, + personal Convictions (that work to mitigate but also to create Stains), + some sensible "hard-coded" Stains (like Blood Bonding, killing Touchstone, diablering), you still get much less Sins to have to keep remembering than the Hierarchies we had in past editions. So for something of a Sabbat game I would have something a tad more simple, Tenets focused on the pack, sect and its beliefs; each PC would have maybe two Convictions (from a chosen Path), and I'm trying to work out some Humanity point to Path point conversion scheme, by 2 points at a time, but it will have to wait, especially wait the Sabbat V5 book; and well, probably Blood Bonding stays as a no-no, maybe not for mortals, and diablerie probably goes stainless (unless players or their Convictions says otherwise). I still think some gratuitous brutal and bloody violence still in some way feeds up the Beast, so I don't know, somethings, common sense for each table, I believe would still be Stain-worthy, even in Sabbat, but way more forgiving than a more humane Vampire play. Still don't know if my PCs will go Sabbat in the chronicle, its taking more time to get to Anarch Revolt because I inserted Under the Black Cross right after the first chapter of Transylvania Chronicles... and it's working wonders.


                    Quick story time cuz I don't know if there will be another opportunity. In my first V5 table, a PC was an Anarch Gangrel veterinarian that almost never treated animals, it worked mostly as an illicit bonesaw doctor that made heaven in an abandoned metro station. The PC had, but the character didn't know of course, Methuselah Thirst. The player wanted this to seem natural to the character, and to permit something that ended up coming right at the end of the story. This Gangrel acted as a vigilante when he was hungry, chasing drug dealers, criminals and alike, jumping up on them and drinking them dry (which didn't satisfied him wholly), using this as an excuse (Conviction time) for his murders, but in the end he fought a celebrating Sabbat pack together with his own coterie. Nearing the battle's end, and I think he frenzied too, our vigilante Gangrel bit one of the vamps, and started drinking, and didn't stop, because this was the first time he was filling full, and he ended up drinking the dudes soul. So our hungry vigilante veterinarian finally had his fill, and showed his colors. It was an awesome development that I wanted to share. d=


                    Strange... When coincidence seems too convenient, I prefer to call it fate.

                    -Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain d=

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                    • Ok but diablerie don't give stains. It result in straight up humanity loss. Maybe 02 points. It's more severe than you you think

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                      • Originally posted by blailton View Post
                        Ok but diablerie don't give stains. It result in straight up humanity loss. Maybe 02 points. It's more severe than you you think
                        Yeah, I've read it on the thread and even ran that on my table by forgot when writing lol (sorry for that)
                        But you know it makes more sense than Stains in my vision, after all, for me, when you diablerise a vampire, you're eating his soul (that is the final fuck you), but even if you do it for a cause or the person consents, I believe you also eat another Beast, that fuses with your own Beast, that is lost of Humanity. Okay, this is a personal view, but I believe for most vampires of a Camarilla, Anarch, or Autarkis game, this is true, and that is what most V5 games are supposed to be (according to the themes and ideas of the edition). But yeah, if you want to run a more warring game, a more militant Sabbat (even if not combat-bound), where PCs are full-on Enlighted on Paths, I suppose you should remove this automatic lost, but that is a very specific game, like a full Alamut loyal Haquimite warriors game. This is perhaps what the problem with V5 is, it is very well done, but for a type of game, one type of game from a variety of them (not gonna say this type of game was the most played anyway cuz I have no way to prove, and I neither want to), and the other types of Vampire games are basically locked, and customization and homebrewing is needed to work.


                        Strange... When coincidence seems too convenient, I prefer to call it fate.

                        -Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain d=

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                        • When you eat a chicken, the chicken doesn't become a permanent part of you. Your body takes in what is useful, the waste goes out, the useful eventually becomes used and useless and goes out too. The Idea that Diablerists devour souls and/or Beasts and they stick around within the limited vessel of the vampire's body is a bit...
                          When I was a kid, I was told that if you eat seeds, a tree will grow inside you. It's a bit like that. Basic understanding of what plants need to grow or how the digestive system operates will make the notion sound silly. Granted, theological points like where does the soul go are a bit less provable than knowing that plants need plentiful sunlight and there's little to no sunlight in your digestive system, but really any experiment would put a lot of doubt on the idea that diablerie is soul-prison and thus the most wicked thing ever. Great propaganda, but not a likely truth. For all you know, Diablerie could have you purify souls for reincarnation; it's not provable, but it's certainly more likely than your tiny body being a capable prison for the souls you've ate, the souls they ate, and the souls they ate.

                          V1 and V2 just had Diablerie as normal murder. I really think the writers really low-key knew what it VTM should be doing: Diablerie was presented as an overlooked part of the natural order for a race cursed by God. Revised comes from a very particular moral angle, A more conventional, conservative moral angle, where diablerists became likened to junkies but diablerie also became more punishing.


                          Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                          There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                          • If the basis of V5 morality is "you set the rules with tenets" then having any hardcoded stains or humanity loss is counterintuitive.

                            I'm a bit torn between editions for humanity. I like the hierarchal structure and I can see how the crimes listed would probably alienate a vampire from the world and errode their ability to care about anything but surviving the hell they live in and seeking the balm of feeding, but it doesn't fully capture the way I see a vampire's "humanity". V5 almost fixed that by letting me set the tenets, and convictions and touchstones would have worked... if they'd worked completely differently. Convictions depending on touchstones is one of the worst design elements of V5, as far as I'm concerned.

                            As for diablerie. Diablerie is when you absorb the experience and generation/power of another vampire. Rather than being multiple souls in a body, I always played it that "possessions" and such were simply misinterpretations of the effects of one person having the lived experiences of two seperate people. Our personalities are shaped by our experiences, new experiences can alter your personality. A vampire might not be the "same person" after the deed as a result.

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                            • I think it simply in terms of thematic effect. Several reasons can be given to how and why Diablerie causes a harsher impact on Humanity, but what really matters is the design reason. In this case, that using it as a means to power shouldn't be done lightly. This is specially true when Diablerie circumvents XP gain/costs.

                              But I do agree that it is steeper than it should given some other game elements. If Diablerie both causes insta loss of Humanity and addicts, then it shouldn't be just a crime, it's outright suicidal.


                              #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
                              #AutismPride
                              She/her pronouns

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                              • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                                When you eat a chicken, the chicken doesn't become a permanent part of you.
                                Diablerie isn't based on eating a chicken.

                                Diablerie is a deliberate nod to one of V:TM's inspirations.



                                That was about a bunch of immortals living in the Modern World in secret. One of the things they did was kill each other and absorb the souls/power of each other.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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