[V5] The Sabbat in V5

[MyWifeIsScary]

V1/2's minimalist style of Diablerie is really the way to go. V20:TBH and V5 get far too detailed, and if folks are gaining permanent dots? RIP party balance. There's no faster way to ruin a game than to encourage players chow down their way to omnipotence.

[monteparnas]

Addiction isn't supposed to give mechanical bonus, or is it? It should be totally crap to have that, and if the player doesn't want to RP that, or thinks he should be bonusfied by his addiction, then it is talk with Narrator time. But most games do (and I think they should) give only debuffs for any form of addiction. Of course, it might sound like "winners don't do diablerie" but the character should feel compelled, not the player. If one does something the other doesn't want to, and it does not bring joy, the game should be adapted to such wants. I don't think it should officially be treated as such though. To be a bad tradeoff seems like a statement.

The big problem in-character is the combo of addiction with insta-loss of Humanity.

Diablerie gives you a benefit and a drug trip. That is desirable from a character standpoint. But it also gives you addiction, that is undesirable by itself, but not necessarily by much. Addicts use their thing (not always drugs) because at some point the benefits outweighed any harm, the addiction only came after that, and even then the benefits frequently outweigh the harm. They still don't want the harm, though, and will try to avoid it if possible.

If Diablerie where something that had a chance to cause Humanity loss, then vampires would engage for the benefits and try to stave off Humanity loss, to gather whatever tool they could to rise their chances and even work on raising Humanity from time to time to have a better prognostic while indulging in it. And addicts would exist and slowly lose Humanity, but would also be trying and sometimes succeeding in staving off the loss.

But as is today, for most Kindred it is "7 doses and game over". Everyone knows what Wassail is, even if not by name, except the most freshly minted neonate. It is a definitive game over, even the most monstrous elders still do their best to avoid that last drop. They do fear one thing more than Final Death: the death of the self. If Diablerie gives this so thoroughly, then addiction means that anyone doing it is bound to go into Wassail too quickly, and Degeneration shows, so this wouldn't just be a risk, it would be common knowledge. The risk isn't just there anymore, it is gigantic.

Would you try it if you knew there is no chance of not loosing a big chunk of ground to the Beast at once, and on top of that you risk being on Wassail by the end of the year or sooner?

[blailton]

The big problem in-character is the combo of addiction with insta-loss of Humanity.



But as is today, for most Kindred it is "7 doses and game over".

or 4. Remember diablerie can make you lose 2 points of humanity.

[CTPhipps]

or 4. Remember diablerie can make you lose 2 points of humanity.

Yes but not necessarily either. That's like the ultimate "Dark Quickening" soul absorbtion.

My inclination regarding diablerie is that it should be able to provide you a boost in experience as well as generation but it shouldn't be something that's very powerful. It gives a decent sized boost enough that it can maybe put you closer to the Elders but it's not worth the immense toll on your soul and sanity that absorbing the soul of another vampire should be. It's definitely something that doing puts you on the Path to becoming a cannibalistic monster but maybe is something that could be done once or twice in your life without turning you purely evil-evil.

I do think that diablerie should be one of the chief causes of wassail, though. That final little sliver of humanity being undone by vampires eating other vampires feels like it would be one of the chief causes actually as there's very few acts that are SO profane and vile that it puts you over the top, IMHO.

[monteparnas]

It would be the chief cause of Wassail just by causing addiction, without need for such harsh Humanity loss. Many addicts reach a point where they do anything for their trip. If Diablerie is highly addictive, then some vampires will reach the point where they do anything to get their fix, from mass murder to vampire farms where they grow and Embrace humans for snacks.

But the catch is that for that to occur it needs to be just safe enough, so people actually feel tempted by the idea.

[Banu_Saulot]

Table of Content in the new Sabbat book is going like this:

Introduction 6
How to use this Book 7
Storyteller Style 7
Theme and Mood 7
Build Your Own Medieval Death Cult 8

Chapter One: Setting Fire 11
The Righteous Supremacy of the Blood 11
Beyond Mortal 12
Power and Liability 12
A Church Militant 13
Shattered Domains 13
Endless Conflict 14
Forging Loyalty 14
Legacy of Brutality 15
Feeding the Beast 15

Chapter Two: Apostates of a Cruel Church 19
Paths of Enlightenment 19
The Path of Caine 20
Ethics 20
In Chronicles 21
Disciplines 21
The Path of Cathari 22
""
The Path of Death and Soul 24
""
The Path of Power and the Inner Voice 26
""
The Path of the Sun 28
""
Forsaken Paths 31
Path of the Beast 31
Path of Honorable Accord 31
Path of Lilith 31
The Killing Time: Antagonists 32
Constructing Conflict 32
Portraying the Paths 33
Path of Caine 33
Path of Cathari 35
Path of Death and Soul 37
Path of Power and the Inner Voice 40
Flotsam and Jetsam 42
The Gifts of Caine: Disciplines 46
Auspex 46
Animalism 47
Dominate 47
Obfuscate 48
Protean 49
Oblivion 49
Blood Sorcery 49
Ceremonies 52
Thin-Blood Alchemy 53
Ritae: Keys to the Dominion of Caine 55
The Role of Ritual 55
Auctoritas Ritae 56
Creation Ritess 57
Ignoblis Ritae 64

Chapter Three: Burn Brightly 71
Anatomy of a Death Cult 71
Image Is Everything 72
Strange Bedfellows 72
Antitribu 74
Overwriting the Individual 75
Cultivating Conformity 75
Catechism: Sabbat Objectives 77
Ideological Enmity 77
Path Realities 79
Adopting a Path 79
Changing Paths 79
Leaving Paths 79
Sabbat Titles 80
Pack Patterns 85

Chapter Four: The Gehenna War 91
A Brief and Dirty History of the Sabbat 91
Blood and Fire 91
Anarchs Revolts 92
From the Ashes of the Revolt 93
Enlightenment in Blood 93
The Beginning of the End of the World 94
SITREP: The Gehenna War 95
An Empire of Blood 95
Mexico City 97
Brazil: Civil War 98
Russia and the Baltics 100
The Maghreb and Alamut 102
The Domain Next Door 103

Chapter Five: Storyteller Resources 105
Setting Element: Sabbat Domains 105
Surge 106
Accord 107
Entente 107
Crusade 108
Story Elements: Chronicles Structures 109
Blood and Fire 109
Hearts and Minds 110
Stoking Revolution 111
Infiltration and Espionage 112
Story Elements: Narrative Structures 115
Rising Action 115
Open Conflict 116
Temptation 117
The Enemy of My Enemy 118
Story Element: Conflict Triangles 120
Rival Sects 120
Playing With Fire: The Second Inquisition 120
Thematic Element: Inhumanities 121
Thematic Element: The Pack Hunts as One 122
Setting Element: Sabbat Havens 122
Communal Havens 123
Storytelling Technique: Paranoia and Red Herrings 124
Thematic Element: the Antediluvians 125
Enemy Unknown 125
Stolen Blood 126

Index 127



So, what you people think?

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

Looks good, but I will still wait on the reviews.

[malfean_gorool]

I’m honestly really happy they decided to bring back the adoption of a Path of Enlightenment. I know some people like the 2nd Edition way of starting there, no strings attached (Willpower buying and all). I personally really liked the journey to reaching that point through play, as recommended in the Revised Edition. Overall, I’m really excited (which is making the delays even more frustrating). I’m looking forward to seeing what the Path of the Sun is about.

[Taggie]

Beast, Honorable Accord and Lilith appear only once, connected with 'Forsaken Paths' ..if Honorable Accord really has been ditched that means weird things for sect structure, if Beast is gone..that is a big loss for RP, and if Lilith is gone, that means the actually interesting and inhuman side of that faith is gone...

[MyWifeIsScary]

Forsaking Honourable accord? You mean THE path? The OG, Best-Boi, How-vampires-should-actually-behave Path?

looks like the Sabbat shall be a caricature of it's former self.

[malfean_gorool]

Beast, Honorable Accord and Lilith appear only once, connected with 'Forsaken Paths' ..if Honorable Accord really has been ditched that means weird things for sect structure, if Beast is gone..that is a big loss for RP, and if Lilith is gone, that means the actually interesting and inhuman side of that faith is gone...

I think that’s mostly down to personal opinion. I think the path of Lilith being eradicated from the Sect was inevitable and it really never belonged there in the first place. It was a highly heretical Path of Enlightenment that the Inquisition would be sure to burn away (as they aren’t just hunters of the infernal, as they are also charged with maintaining the Sabbat orthodoxy). I think one of the mistakes of the Revised Edition was to have an obviously heretical Path be anything but a hunted minority on the brink of being eradicated. Ditto when 2nd Edition had Infernalists even in the highest positions of the Sabbat (I’m looking at you New Mexico).

Path of Honorable Accord and the Beast are definitely a loss, but I’d have to see why they’re gone. Either way, I don’t see why people would stop playing them. I think that it’s probably due to the fact that the Path of the Beast encourages its followers to eschew “civilization” and politics, which is in conflict with the loyalty and orthodoxy demanded by the Ultra-Conservatives and the Status Quo factions of the Sabbat.

Path of Honorable Accord doesn’t make as much sense, since aside from low Humanity shock troops, they’re the bulk of the loyal, no questions asked followers of the Sabbat hierarchy. Their Path DEMANDS that they obey those above them in rank and the Code of Milan. I don’t think they’ll be able to justify that one. I’m definitely not retiring my Salubri antitribu, the most ferocious Abbot ever seen.

[malfean_gorool]

I think people forget that the Sabbat has political and military obligations that every member is expected to meet, aside from the esoteric and philosophical pursuits that also define the Sect. You have the right to do what you want, as long as you have the power to do so. I’ll say it again: you have the right to do what you want, as long as you HAVE the POWER to do so. That’s why the Loyalists are a playable faction. They’re the Anarchs of the Sabbat that don’t want some hierarchy to tell them what to do and what conditions to meet.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Oh yes, the Bahari absolutely don't fit with the Sabbat at all. It's more an Anarch/Autuark/Secret Camarilla path (The Cam also hunts down Gehenna cults, and given the anti-establishment nature of Lilith worship most jurisdictions will happily blur the lines and include Bahari in that category. Even with the nuCam allowing religion, it's easy to imagine Bahari still facing persecution)

[CTPhipps]

I am willing to bet real money that the Path of Honorable Accord isn't going anywhere.

[Chris24601]

Forsaking Honourable accord? You mean THE path? The OG, Best-Boi, How-vampires-should-actually-behave Path?

looks like the Sabbat shall be a caricature of it's former self.

Honorable Accord gets in the way of the Sabbat being a “death cult” (they made sure to highlight that twice in the table of contents), because that’s what the V5 developers have decided the Sabbat needs to be.

Never mind that they’re utterly abusing the language because the Sabbat is absolutely not a death (i.e. mortuary) cult devoted to their ancestors. Rather, it’s a militant ideology masquerading as a cult that excuses murder and other atrocities as necessary steps to achieve their ends. Maybe call it a Murder Cult if you must... but I’m tired of people abusing the language because some idiot misapplied the term to Islamic terrorists (who are also a militant ideologues hiding under the guise of religion) because they wanted to imply they worshipped death itself and someone else thought the term sounded cool without ever bothering to do a basic dictionary search to see if it actually meant that.

Or to summarize by quoting the Princess Bride... “You keep using that word. I don’t think you know what it means.”