Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

[V5] The Sabbat in V5

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
    I got the idea of back to basics but the Sabbat vs Carmarilla had been the primary angle for at least 22 years by then with 3rd ed for fairly organic story telling reasons. I think the point V5 really ran into trouble was the Anarch book which didn't really give the the sect the gravitas and internal organization needed to be a major sect especially when compared to their primary rivals. If you're going to play big boy sect you need big boy concepts, which is frustrating because I liked the Anarchs previously. By contrast 3rd ed guide to the Sabbat and it's mage counterpart guide to technocracy are probably two of the best books white wolf ever wrote.
    Ehhh, I'm not sure that's accurate. The Sabbat and Camarilla for the most part aren't going to interact in the game unless it is a war game. The Sabbat showing up to raise hell is certainly an easy to do adventure but as warring sects, they're completely out of interaction. Aside from the Clan Novels in 1999, the vast majority of adventures and plot hooks are going to be based around internal and city-based intrigue.

    The Sabbat are an integral vital part of the setting but its like saying, "Klingons have been the primary angle for Star Trek since TOS."


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

      Ehhh, I'm not sure that's accurate. The Sabbat and Camarilla for the most part aren't going to interact in the game unless it is a war game. The Sabbat showing up to raise hell is certainly an easy to do adventure but as warring sects, they're completely out of interaction. Aside from the Clan Novels in 1999, the vast majority of adventures and plot hooks are going to be based around internal and city-based intrigue.

      The Sabbat are an integral vital part of the setting but its like saying, "Klingons have been the primary angle for Star Trek since TOS."
      Pretty much all the lore around 3rd ed until v5 heavily emphasised the fact most vampires belonged to either sect also the Sabbat has internal city based intrigue pretty much anything in montreal is going to focus on that. One of my favourate chronicles was the a year long hunt for infernalist where the GM ran an external horror game for Sabbat the campaign slogan was what is a monster to a monster?

      Klingons in Next generation and Ds9 are really well fleshed out to the point a lot of people identify with them more than the hippy dippy federations. Although personally I prefered the Cardassians
      .
      Last edited by Ragged Robin; 09-19-2021, 09:54 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post

        Pretty much all the lore around 3rd ed until v5 heavily emphasised the fact most vampires belonged to either sect also the Sabbat has internal city based intrigue pretty much anything in montreal is going to focus on that. One of my favourate chronicles was the a year long hunt for infernalist where the GM ran an external horror game for Sabbat the campaign slogan was what is a monster to a monster?

        Klingons in Next generation and Ds9 are really well fleshed out to the point a lot of people identify with them more than the hippy dippy federations. Although personally I prefered the Cardassians
        .
        Yes, vampires belonged to either sect because the Anarchs were part of the Camarilla. My point is that Mexico City might as well have been Mordor for the fact the Sabbat are going to impact a plot in, say, Chicago or Los Angeles. If you weren't playing a Sabbat game (and I played plenty of them), the Sabbat were an occassional threat or danger but not a part of most game's local politics.

        Most games will have the majority of vampires you deal with be of your own sect.

        Just my .02.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          Yes, vampires belonged to either sect because the Anarchs were part of the Camarilla. My point is that Mexico City might as well have been Mordor for the fact the Sabbat are going to impact a plot in, say, Chicago or Los Angeles. If you weren't playing a Sabbat game (and I played plenty of them), the Sabbat were an occassional threat or danger but not a part of most game's local politics.

          Most games will have the majority of vampires you deal with be of your own sect.

          Just my .02.

          The anarch population levels prior to 5th are pretty low full stop, they have no clans in majority prior to Brujah and gangrel defection during the 2nd revolt and the carmarilla's bizarre decision to make the sect exclusive. I've always thought of it more as a Sin city, Necromunda, Commorragh, Baltimore in the wire or Sierra leone in the 90's style setting depending on how hard you want to play it. Mordor has a very sterile lockstep order vibe that's not really what being Sabbat is like from my gaming experiance, their's usually plenty going in terms of people of plot conflict. Even if it's something as mundaine as trying to muscle a rival pack out of a meth lab or trying to do a gun run.

          Personally I nudge toward Commarragh/sin city where it has the image of Anarchy with endemic violence but their's a strict order to things which is not immediately visable but will kill you if you ignore it. No one wants to be tortured to death by the Archbishop because you trashed the night club he launders cash through or enter nossie territory without clearing it with them first and god help you if the inquisitor thinks you learnt that thaumaturgy from a demon.
          Last edited by Ragged Robin; 09-19-2021, 10:30 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
            The anarch population levels prior to 5th are pretty low full stop, they have no clans in majority prior to Brujah and gangrel defection during the 2nd revolt and the carmarilla's bizarre decision to make the sect exclusive. I've always thought of it more as a Sin city, Necromunda, Commorragh, Baltimore in the wire or Sierra leone in the 90's style setting depending on how hard you want to play it. Mordor has a very sterile lockstep order vibe that's not really what being Sabbat is like from my gaming experiance, their's usually plenty going in terms of people of plot conflict. Even if it's something as mundaine as trying to muscle a rival pack out of a meth lab or trying to do a gun run.

            Personally I nudge toward Commarragh where it has the image of Anarchy with endemic violence but their's a strict order to things which is not immediately visable as well as being evil as balls.
            Technically, I think the Caitiff would qualify as a Clan majority.

            Mind you, the thing about the Anarchs is that vampire populations are resoundingly ridiculously low. Chicago is a huge city with a massive vampire population of...100.

            And it had a dozen or so Anarchs.

            Which is to say they're not the majority but a pretty powerful block in every Camarilla city.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

              Technically, I think the Caitiff would qualify as a Clan majority.

              Mind you, the thing about the Anarchs is that vampire populations are resoundingly ridiculously low. Chicago is a huge city with a massive vampire population of...100.

              And it had a dozen or so Anarchs.

              Which is to say they're not the majority but a pretty powerful block in every Camarilla city.

              It's debatable if even caitiff where a prominant group Panders probably had a larger representation in Sabbat for a number of reasons ( freedom of embrace, bloodline cohesion), I wouldnt say they didnt exist but out of say 100 vampires about 3-10 would be anarch with curve average being around 5 and that's presuming they're enthusiastic about 'the cause' (big if). this means that statistically your talking about 2.5% of the kindred population being Anarch worldwide and thats being charitable. Personally I got the impression Anarch representation really shone in smaller towns away from major urban centres where some pissant Caitiff would be the only vampires present or rural quasi nomad packs.
              Last edited by Ragged Robin; 09-19-2021, 10:55 AM.

              Comment


              • I don't think the Brujah were ever majority "Anarch" or at least, hard anarch (ie wanting the Camarilla to fuck off, rather than just wanting a modest local reform or change in leadership) The Brujah, with their frenzy prone nature that puts them more at risk, mostly recognize that the need for cooperation in ensuring the Masquerade, and some kind of law and order is good for that. Turning against the system that promisses to shelter you and forgive some of your excesses is not smart. If I'm being generous, I'd say you could split the thing 30,30,30,10; Hard Anarchs*, Soft Anarchs (not really anarchs), Ardent Cam supporters and the last 10% are autuarks or folks who've fallen in with independents. Even then "Hard Anarchs" isn't a good term because many of them don't give a shit about the Cause and just want what's good for them, and they'd probably join the Cam if they had a good turf.

                The only "clan" that I'd say are more Anarch than not are defined by not being a clan; the Caitiff. Out of Camarilla rejection rather than a conscious choice.
                Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 09-19-2021, 11:26 AM.


                Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

                Comment


                • Pre-V5 the Camarilla doesn't reject the Caitiff. Quite the contrary, while they live under extreme prejudice it is the Camarilla as an institution that grant them the same protections under its law that it confers to everyone else. If you pay attention and don't assume that everything about vampiric society is about the Camarilla, the game have a hard line drawn between what is Cam policy and what is social prejudice and superstitions that it actually tries to eliminate, even among its members.

                  The Camarilla is actively against Noddism and apocalyptic superstitions. It may not be hard on that, and many of its members privately hold such beliefs, but the Cam as an institution does regard those beliefs as undesirable and the behaviors they elicit as problematic. Many elders game the system to their goals, but the very fact that they must do so instead of simply doing what they want demonstrate that the system isn't geared already in that direction. Killing a Caitiff is as much a crime under Cam's law as killing any other vampire, and although the social pressure for the punishment may be lower, it can still go all the way up to a Blood Hunt.

                  Anarchs are precisely the people that talk Caine, Nod and Gehenna openly, and that may openly defend the end of the Thin Blood. Some of them are Caitiff supporter and some of them are Caitiff themselves, but they're precisely the people that defend a system where the Caitiff won't have even a nominal protection against the fear of the Thin Blood Profecy.


                  #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
                  #AutismPride
                  She/her pronouns

                  Comment


                  • I'm not thrilled about the Path of Honorable Accord being reduced to a footnote, as it's the path my main Vampire character follows. Though perhaps I should be; likely it hasn't been revamped into something with no resemblance to its former makeup as the Path of Caine allegedly has been. Oh well, maybe it'll at least have some canon Convictions I can use. (If not, Long Hard Road Out of Hell seems like it will serve admirably.)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                      Pre-V5 the Camarilla doesn't reject the Caitiff. Quite the contrary, while they live under extreme prejudice it is the Camarilla as an institution that grant them the same protections under its law that it confers to everyone else. If you pay attention and don't assume that everything about vampiric society is about the Camarilla, the game have a hard line drawn between what is Cam policy and what is social prejudice and superstitions that it actually tries to eliminate, even among its members.

                      The Camarilla is actively against Noddism and apocalyptic superstitions. It may not be hard on that, and many of its members privately hold such beliefs, but the Cam as an institution does regard those beliefs as undesirable and the behaviors they elicit as problematic. Many elders game the system to their goals, but the very fact that they must do so instead of simply doing what they want demonstrate that the system isn't geared already in that direction. Killing a Caitiff is as much a crime under Cam's law as killing any other vampire, and although the social pressure for the punishment may be lower, it can still go all the way up to a Blood Hunt.

                      Anarchs are precisely the people that talk Caine, Nod and Gehenna openly, and that may openly defend the end of the Thin Blood. Some of them are Caitiff supporter and some of them are Caitiff themselves, but they're precisely the people that defend a system where the Caitiff won't have even a nominal protection against the fear of the Thin Blood Profecy.
                      As importantly the Carmarilla prior to v5 understood the masquarade was only viable if all kindred were considered part of the sect. Without that tacit conspiracy of silence and jurestiction the Carmarilla cannot really function, which leads inevitably back to the problems of V5's writing.
                      Last edited by Ragged Robin; 09-19-2021, 03:21 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                        Pre-V5 the Camarilla doesn't reject the Caitiff. .
                        Unsanctioned embraces are usually going to end up destroyed and the sire may die with it. Thus most Caitiff childer will be sired by those on the periphery or otherwise find themselves pushed and pulled towards the periphery.


                        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                        There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                          Unsanctioned embraces are usually going to end up destroyed and the sire may die with it.
                          There is no hard rule on what is the punishment for unsanctioned Embraces and punishment on the sire is more common than on the childe. This is one of the many rules that superstitious elders can game against Caitiff, but is hardly something that happens always. Even because you only have a break of the law when you can point to what happened, which frequently isn't the case.

                          I never saw a single line in the books saying that Caitiffs are singled out and killed by the Camarilla indiscriminately as result of unsanctioned Embraces, and in fact they are usually described as living in the outskirts of Kindred society, but not as clandestine members of it. Given, even Anarchs aren't usually clandestine members of Camarilla cities.

                          VtM books are tough on the prejudice they face, but are also very consistent in depicting the hunt of Caitiff as a clandestine affair openly against Camarilla's law. If I'm wrong, please cite a pre-V5 book passage that demonstrates otherwise.


                          #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
                          #AutismPride
                          She/her pronouns

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            I don't think the Brujah were ever majority "Anarch" or at least, hard anarch (ie wanting the Camarilla to fuck off, rather than just wanting a modest local reform or change in leadership) The Brujah, with their frenzy prone nature that puts them more at risk, mostly recognize that the need for cooperation in ensuring the Masquerade, and some kind of law and order is good for that. Turning against the system that promisses to shelter you and forgive some of your excesses is not smart. If I'm being generous, I'd say you could split the thing 30,30,30,10; Hard Anarchs*, Soft Anarchs (not really anarchs), Ardent Cam supporters and the last 10% are autuarks or folks who've fallen in with independents. Even then "Hard Anarchs" isn't a good term because many of them don't give a shit about the Cause and just want what's good for them, and they'd probably join the Cam if they had a good turf.

                            The only "clan" that I'd say are more Anarch than not are defined by not being a clan; the Caitiff. Out of Camarilla rejection rather than a conscious choice.
                            I take it in your world of darkness that the Anarchs are a tiny, insignificant and not at all relevant group?


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                            Comment



                            • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                              There is no hard rule on what is the punishment for unsanctioned Embraces and punishment on the sire is more common than on the childe. This is one of the many rules that superstitious elders can game against Caitiff, but is hardly something that happens always. Even because you only have a break of the law when you can point to what happened, which frequently isn't the case.

                              I never saw a single line in the books saying that Caitiffs are singled out and killed by the Camarilla indiscriminately as result of unsanctioned Embraces, and in fact they are usually described as living in the outskirts of Kindred society, but not as clandestine members of it. Given, even Anarchs aren't usually clandestine members of Camarilla cities.

                              VtM books are tough on the prejudice they face, but are also very consistent in depicting the hunt of Caitiff as a clandestine affair openly against Camarilla's law. If I'm wrong, please cite a pre-V5 book passage that demonstrates otherwise.

                              Traditions 3 and 6 empower the Eldest (usually interpreted to mean the prince in camarilla law) to destroy other vampire's in general and specifically unsanctioned embraces, rule 5 can also apply if they're new and meet the scourge before they can present themselves to the prince. Under carmarilla policy it's effectively the princes domain rights. While it isnt public policy to kill caitiff in the sect, a prince can invoke that right if he chooses and has the clout to get away with it and it's unlikely the ivory tower will intercede unless theirs some sort of deeper issue.
                              I wouldnt really say the ivory tower has a kill all caitiff policy but it certainly has no legal objection to their extermination if a prince decides he wants to do it. Ultimatly the big issue is that its down to the discretion of the eldars and princes and the justicar or his archons will not save you.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                I take it in your world of darkness that the Anarchs are a tiny, insignificant and not at all relevant group?
                                You make it sound like a bad thing?

                                But, uh, no. But also Yes. Depends on the cities.

                                In some cities, the Cam is strong, the sense of community is strong, and resistance is futile. Many vampires don't know that they have a choice: There are no open anarchs, so someone with different ideas is going to find no allies, and with an absence of information, they're going to come to believe that all cities are like this. Suicides are a hundred times more likely than an anarch popping up, and if someone does start causing problems, it's very easy for the Camarilla to trick the neonate into breaking a law and destroying them with a good pretense.

                                Because political horror is fun to me.

                                In other cities, the Cam is certainly strong, but the community is unstable. Nobody is strong enough to declare themselves an Anarch openly, but there are certainly people who hate the prince or covet his title, or they may hate or covet the resources of other powerful vampires. Some may grow to hate the Camarilla as an institution, and may very much desperately wish to get rid of it, but openly fighting will turn your domain into free real estate.

                                Because again, Political horror is fun to me.

                                In other cities, the central authority isn't strong or agressive enough to scare people out of calling themselves anarchs, but they basically act as little more than an opposition party that never wins in a democratic country. Oh yes, there might be some covert warfare in there, and a little bit of "We'll fight you if you actually make this rulling" and they otherwise mostly agree to follow the Prince's laws so long as he doesn't pull bullshit on them. They might have some more autonomous regions.

                                and in still other cities... The Cam exists, but there's more anarchs, and the Cam largely survives because they're the least offensive faction, they're good at playing the Anarchs against eachother , or more likely the Anarchs are fighting eachother on their own vollition.

                                If a cities goes completely Anarch, well, it's like Communism. If it's doing poorly, the Cam will hold it up as an example of why it should never be done. If done well, the Cam will hold hands with the Sabbat and start skipping into the city with flamethrowers in tow.


                                Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                                There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X