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[V5] The Sabbat in V5

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  • One of the more interesting angles I found was an Anarch strongholds in Sabbat territories, were they both have to keep a comparative low profile and fight regularly to defend against incursion, nice change of pace for Anarchs used to dealing with passive aggressive cam snobbery to have a violent psychopath who considers you to soft come for you.
    Last edited by Ragged Robin; 09-19-2021, 05:28 PM.

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    • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
      You make it sound like a bad thing?

      But, uh, no. But also Yes. Depends on the cities.

      In some cities, the Cam is strong, the sense of community is strong, and resistance is futile. Many vampires don't know that they have a choice: There are no open anarchs, so someone with different ideas is going to find no allies, and with an absence of information, they're going to come to believe that all cities are like this. Suicides are a hundred times more likely than an anarch popping up, and if someone does start causing problems, it's very easy for the Camarilla to trick the neonate into breaking a law and destroying them with a good pretense.

      Because political horror is fun to me.

      In other cities, the Cam is certainly strong, but the community is unstable. Nobody is strong enough to declare themselves an Anarch openly, but there are certainly people who hate the prince or covet his title, or they may hate or covet the resources of other powerful vampires. Some may grow to hate the Camarilla as an institution, and may very much desperately wish to get rid of it, but openly fighting will turn your domain into free real estate.

      Because again, Political horror is fun to me.

      In other cities, the central authority isn't strong or agressive enough to scare people out of calling themselves anarchs, but they basically act as little more than an opposition party that never wins in a democratic country. Oh yes, there might be some covert warfare in there, and a little bit of "We'll fight you if you actually make this rulling" and they otherwise mostly agree to follow the Prince's laws so long as he doesn't pull bullshit on them. They might have some more autonomous regions.

      and in still other cities... The Cam exists, but there's more anarchs, and the Cam largely survives because they're the least offensive faction, they're good at playing the Anarchs against eachother , or more likely the Anarchs are fighting eachother on their own vollition.

      If a cities goes completely Anarch, well, it's like Communism. If it's doing poorly, the Cam will hold it up as an example of why it should never be done. If done well, the Cam will hold hands with the Sabbat and start skipping into the city with flamethrowers in tow.
      Interesting take and thank you for sharing!


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
        Traditions 3 and 6 empower the Eldest (usually interpreted to mean the prince in camarilla law) to destroy other vampire's in general and specifically unsanctioned embraces, rule 5 can also apply if they're new and meet the scourge before they can present themselves to the prince.
        And that's why I said the rules can be gamed against Caitiff.

        But since discouraging superstitions is also Camarilla policy (although not law per se), it is unlikely that a Prince will stray too far of its usual punishments for the same crime frequently. Emphasis on too far and frequently, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying it isn't common enough to make the Camarilla a bad option for Caitiff compared to no protection at all.

        There is an idea that the Camarilla as a sect persecutes the Caitiff, and the truth is the opposite. It isn't a strong opposition and a Caitiff is more or less screwed in any place, but the Camarilla's position is for their protection, not extermination. Caitiff hunts happen despite the Camarilla, not due to it or empowered by it. It is sometimes done by Camarilla members, but never with Camarilla support. Its laws may be gamed to allow it, but the very fact that they must be gamed to allow it is because the default stance is forbidding it.

        If a prince kills 1 in 9 unsanctioned childes, this number can go to 1 in 3 for Caitiff, but the other two thirds are relatively safe after that. This is a dire number, makes Caitiff 3 times more likely to be summarily executed, more if you consider that some may be actually sanctioned Embraces that went unrecognized for some reason. But if the Prince go further than that, then it may signal problems that aren't healthy for a Prince's position and influence, like being excessively superstitious, changing from a veiled difference in treatment to an open difference in treatment, or becoming unnecessarily ruthless. Directly it won't cost the prince much, but in context it isn't a healthy sign in a secular sect.


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        • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
          And that's why I said the rules can be gamed against Caitiff.

          But since discouraging superstitions is also Camarilla policy (although not law per se), it is unlikely that a Prince will stray too far of its usual punishments for the same crime frequently. Emphasis on too far and frequently, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying it isn't common enough to make the Camarilla a bad option for Caitiff compared to no protection at all.

          There is an idea that the Camarilla as a sect persecutes the Caitiff, and the truth is the opposite. It isn't a strong opposition and a Caitiff is more or less screwed in any place, but the Camarilla's position is for their protection, not extermination. Caitiff hunts happen despite the Camarilla, not due to it or empowered by it. It is sometimes done by Camarilla members, but never with Camarilla support. Its laws may be gamed to allow it, but the very fact that they must be gamed to allow it is because the default stance is forbidding it.

          If a prince kills 1 in 9 unsanctioned childes, this number can go to 1 in 3 for Caitiff, but the other two thirds are relatively safe after that. This is a dire number, makes Caitiff 3 times more likely to be summarily executed, more if you consider that some may be actually sanctioned Embraces that went unrecognized for some reason. But if the Prince go further than that, then it may signal problems that aren't healthy for a Prince's position and influence, like being excessively superstitious, changing from a veiled difference in treatment to an open difference in treatment, or becoming unnecessarily ruthless. Directly it won't cost the prince much, but in context it isn't a healthy sign in a secular sect.
          Gamed is a bit of an understatement, the system itself is intrisically hostile due to the fact they don't pit into the legal system of kindred society since they don't typically have a sire

          The Carmarilla doesn't need to invoke superstition to kill caitiff, the Masquarade threat of unsanctioned vampires alone justifies it which is the entire point of the sect on paper.

          The sect persecutes caitiff in the same sense modern society persecutes a lot of disenfranchised people. Strictly speaking their's no implicit policies to harm but the way the system is structured inevitably means harm will occur.

          Typically a prince can often get away with killing 9 out of 9 unsanctioned childers if he really wants to since it would imply and extreme flouting of the rules within the city rule tradition 3 explicitly endorses this approach and the Masquarade threats, if a prince does spare an unsanctioned embrace he might make a big song and dance about it since it's deviation from the norm as seen with lecroux in bloodlines.

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          • Generally, A sire will have right to kill their childer at least until the accounting period is over. Sometimes if the childer doesn't make it so far, it doesn't count, and the vampire may continue to use their embrace right until a childer makes it to accounting. More generous interpretations of the tradition might allow for primogen to kill anyone of their clan, or for anyone to cut down their lineage.

            The likely approach for an unsanctioned fledgling discovered in the city would first be for the Prince/Authority to ask for the Neonate's sire to come forward. If nobody comes forward ,or perhaps someone is unsure, the prince will command the Tremere to discover the sire. What follows will be a game of favour trading/begging for leniency disguised as a legal proceeding (or the prince gauging how much they can afford to offend the sire.) In any case the Childe will be killed if nobody wants to bother rearing it, and that's more likely if the unsanctioned childe is a caitiff.


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            • Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
              The sect persecutes caitiff in the same sense modern society persecutes a lot of disenfranchised people. Strictly speaking their's no implicit policies to harm but the way the system is structured inevitably means harm will occur.
              True and I recognize that. Yet my point isn't if the system is hostile, but if the system is murderous.

              Simply put, no book ever said that Caitiff are systematically killed, or even left that to interpretation. Instead, the books always refer to the Caitiff as a phenomenon and a part of Camarilla society begrudgingly accepted by others. That's what is said on every core book, that's what is said in Guide to the Camarilla, that's what is said in the V20 Companion. They exist, are numerous, and have the same basic rights under Camarilla law. Not only that, but the Camarilla effectively consider tolerating the Caitiff beneficial to the Masquerade and useful to have shock troops against the Sabbat, as stated in the GttC pages 54 and 55.

              A Prince can kill every single unsanctioned childes in the city, sure. But how many do? A Prince can be far harsher with Caitiff without repercussion. But saying this happens to an extreme is against the statements in the actual books. The Caitiff are protected by Camarilla law even if not liked, sometimes get positions in it, and the ones that are too fed up become Anarchs in Camarilla cities, sure, where they're still under the protection of law more often than not, since the Cam being at war with the Anarchs, save very specific situations, is only a thing in V5, while before the Anarchs pretty much existed most of the time under Cam law.

              Heck, even in Bloodlines it is pretty clear that despite La Croix being pathetically ignored and the Anarchs being the power(s) in town, Camarilla law is in full effect.


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              • My general take is COTERIES OF NEW YORK with unsanctioned childer. If you can prove a vampire was Embraced in a city without permission they will be killed by the Prince along with their sire: 1:1.

                The EXCEPTION being if one of the court takes responsibility for them. Which isn't as unlikely as you think because that vampire is something the Harpy can do almost anything to: blood bond, enslave, abuse, or kill. It's basically a free minion.

                La Croix showed how his reign wasn't secure because killing ONE was enough but not the childe and the sire.
                Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-20-2021, 01:45 PM.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                  La Croix showed how his reign wasn't secure because killing ONE was enough but not the childe and the sire.
                  Killing one wasn't enough. Killing one was a freaking show of power. It was like "you see? I'm so powerful that I can even punish this criminal!"

                  And what a criminal, no one ever cared about your sire anyways.


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                  • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                    Killing one wasn't enough. Killing one was a freaking show of power. It was like "you see? I'm so powerful that I can even punish this criminal!"

                    And what a criminal, no one ever cared about your sire anyways.
                    Yeah, La Croix wanted to essentially show he COULD enforce a Blood Hunt and execution on the Anarchs. Except by not being willing to face Nines there, he showed he couldn't under actual objection.

                    Nice subtle storytelling.

                    As stated in one of my games, "How do you know if someone is a Prince? They can get away with doing what a Prince does."


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • A video of somebody flicking through the book. It turns out that the Path of the Sun is something followed by thin-bloods.

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                      • THIN BLOODS IN THE SABBAT!? UNPOSSIBLE!


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • Thin-bloods that want torch Camarilla is a terribly dangerous threat indeed. I wonder if just getting more security for your daily sleep is gonna cut it. And I also if Panders are so progressive as to take-in the Thinbloods.


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                          • Considering that Caitiff tend to be of higher generation and many were already thin blood by Revised anyway, probably the Panders accept them.

                            Even because for all purposes this IS the Time of Thin Bloods that signal Gehenna, so it isn't at all surprising that the Sabbat started to welcome them instead of rejecting them: the end is now, the portents be damned, better to have them as soldiers against the Ancients.

                            But seriously, it already seems like they're a book of Antagonists, don't have high expectations on... anything.
                            Last edited by monteparnas; 09-21-2021, 12:44 AM. Reason: typo


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                            • The flip through looks like most paths get half a page at best, so again not much hope. Iconic and popular ideologies such as Power and the Inner Voice, and Honorable Accord relegated to a few sentences doesn't bode well
                              Last edited by Taggie; 09-21-2021, 02:26 AM.

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                              • As there ever been an explanation, out of universe, for why the Sabbat was mostly comprised of antitribu instead of equally powerful clans than the Camarilla ?

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