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[V5] The Sabbat in V5

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  • omenseer
    replied
    There are those that would take umbrage at needing to spend advantage dots on following a path. "Not fair! FORCING US TO USE HUMANITY." Etc.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Some interesting Clan and Bloodline Updates I'd make are:

    + The Tzimisce should have a Cult of Kupala to go along with Caine worship. It is not considered demon worship and is a Koldunism worshiping sect. There should also be a Cult of Dracula and Cult of Lilith too.

    + The Loyalist faction departing for the Anarchs with the Panders Clan weakened as a result. I would have Joseph Panders assassinated and martyred for Caitiff rights as a result with questions of who killed him.

    + House Goratrix declares itself neutral and independent of the Sabbat. The Sabbat still consider them part of the sect, though, and it maintains its fortresses in their territory. The Tzimisce smell something awful but can't move against the Tremere house yet.

    + The Harbingers of Skulls have left the Sabbat to join the Hecate and many Sabbat consider them traitors for it. However, the Harbingers point out they KILLED their Antediluvian (or so they claim) and are actually willing to help the Sabbat in payment for the boon of their early "hospitality." Some Lasombra on the Cammies side would also have access to these debt.

    + The Salubri Antitribu have been purged from the Sabbat due to their ideals contradicting with the sect's too radically. They've either joined with the Sabbat Inquisition for protection, fled to the Ashirra, Anarchs, or joined House Goratrix for maximum irony's sake.

    + A large chunk of the Serpents of Light have joined with the Ministry and indeed form a large chunk of that organization now. A few of them maintain dual membership in both the Anarchs as well as Sabbat, showing the rifts growing in the sect.

    + Bring path the Path of Harmony with a group of Sabbat working undercover to try to bring back their fellow vampires to a more sane and less Beast-dominated role. They are very often martyred. It is also as persecuted as Infernalism among the sect.

    + A decent number of Brujah and Gangrel defected from the Camarilla to join the Sabbat and have increased the power of those anti-clans to make up for the losses in other areas.

    + The True Hand has radically changed in recent years and is now all on team Sabbat. It is now whispered as an organization that is a "Sabbat within the Sabbat" and devotes its massive resources to rebuilding the sect.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 04-15-2020, 01:44 AM.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    To get back to the original topic:

    + If I were to do a SABBAT book I would imagine it would look a lot like the ANARCH book in that it would give a lot of different groups currently working alongside one another in the Sabbat without actually saying how they all fit together in one heirarchy.

    + I think there should definitely be multiple Regents now because that's just a cool concept to me and you could have them competing like in Beckett's Jyhad Diary. However, if I were to say any one person should be Regent it should be Polonia. Polonia is the guy who started the Gehenna Crusade so if the majority of the Sabbat did decide to go on an Ancient murdering frenzy then he's the guy who had the authority to do it.

    + I'd definitely emphasize the horror story elements of the Sabbat and their role as the freaks and monsters of the sect. There's a lot of things you can do with in-universe fiction that could be interesting to read about in small doses. You can have the Sawyer clan from Texas Chainsaw Massacre, American Psycho-style Grimaldis, and weird Shadows over Innsmouth villages ruled by Caine-worshiping cults.

    + I do think making an optional set of rules for adapting Humanity to Paths is necessary for any Sabbat book but I've said how I would do it. Every Path would be a Loresheet that gives benefits to following the Paths tenets. Like if you have the PATH OF CAINE loresheet, it should have ** Thirst of the Sire where you don't lose a point of Humanity if you commit diablerie on a "unworthy" vampire.

    + I do think Packs should be allowed as Touchstones for Sabbat as well as potentially your superiors. The Sabbat are special in that they have uncommonly close bonds from being Sabbat.

    + Cults of the Blood Gods really emphasized the magical aspects of Blood Cults so the ritae of the Sabbat should be incorporated as Blood Sorcery. Things like Firewalking, Creation Rites, and Blood Bonds all should be given rituals in the back.

    + I think the Tzimisce should have Animalism, Blood Sorcery, and Protean. With Blood Sorcery as something the Banu Haqim have and Tzimisce both, we can increase the dark occultism element of the Sabbat without really having to have everyone have it. Auspex is something a lot of people felt the Tzimisce should have but it's something I don't necessarily associate with Dracula while the above Discipline spread brings the Tzimisce closer to the "classical" Dracula.

    The Necroscope Tzimicse would have Vicissitude as we know it as a Combo Discipline. It would also be something they'd usually need a laboratory for. Less Flesh Sculpting with your hands and more in Doctor Frankenstein's lab.

    + I'd probably retcon Ghoul Families as Thin Bloods in V5, just ones that were born and grow up. That way we can have Thin Bloods have an in the Sabbat. Also potentially questioning their role in things.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 05-18-2020, 07:04 AM.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post

    Most people like stability and comfort more than they like freedom. Indeed, tyranny usually only provokes rebellion in large numbers when it threatens comfort and stability indirectly via its efforts to maintain power. So long as the Camarilla can peddle the idea that you will actually get to keep your immortality and steady blood-supply, I can't see many vamps leaving them because of "muh freedom!".

    Especially since even the harshest vampire dictatorship still leaves you as a mind-controlling immortal surrounded by millions of toys and food, Freedom is extreeeemely relative as a vampire. It's really only if it became obvious that the Camarilla can not provide relative safety and food compared to other sects that it would fall as the largest sect.
    I always default to Chicago as the iconic city for vampires and basically a representative of how the average vampire lives. In Chicago by Night 1st and 2nd Edition, the majority of vampires are generally "street level" people who manage to live night by night. There's the Tammys in burnt out houses, the Theodore Dooleys doing low level activism, and the Brett Strykers doing their Cocktail thing. It's only a handful that are like Annabelle, Lodin, Capone, Ballard, and Bronwyn who have real powerful influence behind the scenes.

    Prior to 5th Edition, the Camarilla tolerated the existence of the former vampires and claimed everyone was a member but it was really just a way to keep them all under thumb. It wasn't like Lodin or any other Prince was going out of their way to help wayward vampires. You survived on your own power or died. The Anarchs were sort of a safety valve because if you were 14 like Damien and didn't have a cover identity, you needed your friends to help you survive.

    It's only with V5 that the Camarilla has kicked everyone out who wasn't part of Group B because they don't NEED the vampires who don't have money and power or influence behind the scenes. The Camarilla is now a PRIVILEGE rather than a right--which leaves a lot of vampires with nowhere to go but the Anarchs.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 04-15-2020, 01:51 AM.

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  • CajunKhan
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    The Anarchs honestly feel like they would be the majority of Kindred because:

    1. Most people don't like like feudalism
    2. Those embraced in the Modern Nights would be the majority
    3. The higher generations have no recourse in Camarilla society but to fight against it.



    Eh, we're all having fun here.

    At least I am.
    Most people like stability and comfort more than they like freedom. Indeed, tyranny usually only provokes rebellion in large numbers when it threatens comfort and stability indirectly via its efforts to maintain power. So long as the Camarilla can peddle the idea that you will actually get to keep your immortality and steady blood-supply, I can't see many vamps leaving them because of "muh freedom!".

    Especially since even the harshest vampire dictatorship still leaves you as a mind-controlling immortal surrounded by millions of toys and food, Freedom is extreeeemely relative as a vampire. It's really only if it became obvious that the Camarilla can not provide relative safety and food compared to other sects that it would fall as the largest sect.

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  • Val_Nir
    replied
    Originally posted by elmerg View Post
    I'm slightly surprised the admins haven't locked this thread for edition war issues.
    Well, just a slight disturbance here. Personally, I'd like to have a general thread on people's predictions, hopes and suggestions in regards to the future of this sect.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Taggie View Post
    Nope. because if that had played out properly, their would be about 150 anarchs globally, at the high end. They got given thousands of extras for...reasons that stretch credulity. An anarch cam war is Cam win gang bangers and jocks with a blood fetish die.
    The Anarchs honestly feel like they would be the majority of Kindred because:

    1. Most people don't like like feudalism
    2. Those embraced in the Modern Nights would be the majority
    3. The higher generations have no recourse in Camarilla society but to fight against it.

    Originally posted by elmerg View Post
    I'm slightly surprised the admins haven't locked this thread for edition war issues.
    Eh, we're all having fun here.

    At least I am.

    Leave a comment:


  • Taggie
    replied
    Originally posted by Necroticbinder View Post

    No. You don't want it hard. Because I just explained how it can literally fucking have the rigidity of the previous edition and you just washed it away. If you can't accept that you can literally just have a conviction be "Path of X" and if your ST allows it. Then you'll not be happy with any system because your issue isn't with the system, it's the fact that games move on and evolve. They don't get stuck in the mud and literally never change anything.

    Have you tried to do that? I have: it does not function, you cannot have the internal inconsistencies, the degeneration loosing the path etc it simply does not WORK. It is not detailed enough, it is not granular enough, it is to shallow and one dimensional, even if you take all 3 tenets and all 3 convictions, house rule the touchstones out of the way you still don't get there.
    Last edited by Taggie; 04-14-2020, 09:07 PM.

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  • elmerg
    replied
    I'm slightly surprised the admins haven't locked this thread for edition war issues.

    Leave a comment:


  • Necroticbinder
    replied
    Originally posted by Taggie View Post


    1) I don't want to be a 'special snowflake' I want a morality system that is HARD and granular, is fixed and rigid. It doesn't do any path justice now, including humanity, I want beast I be least beast I become to fucking mean something, it utterly fails at that, you can lie and scream and fanboi that it does, doesn't makle it anything but lies.
    No. You don't want it hard. Because I just explained how it can literally fucking have the rigidity of the previous edition and you just washed it away. If you can't accept that you can literally just have a conviction be "Path of X" and if your ST allows it. Then you'll not be happy with any system because your issue isn't with the system, it's the fact that games move on and evolve. They don't get stuck in the mud and literally never change anything.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Taggie View Post




    nope. because if that had played out properly, their would be about 150 anarchs globally, at the high end. They got given thousands of extras for...reasons that stretch credulity. An anarch cam war is Cam win gang bangers and jocks with a blood fetish die.

    That's such a complete asspull. THat's like saying "There were only ever 10 members of the Sabbat" its not based on anything like a sizeable faction of the populace THAT has always had its own guide. That even was populace enough in v20 to be the only one that got a guide. But yeah lets just make up "Realistic numbers" the Sabbat couldn't realistically be more than 3 packs without falling into self destruction.. there you go..

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Taggie View Post



    I don't have a problem with humans being scary, for the record, and don't recall arguing they shouldn't be.

    What we have so far is a system of Humanity and lore sheets that is totally incompatible with paths, (Seriously Lore sheets are flat awful, hate those things so much)
    They are merits. They aren't a particularly NEW concept. They cover what previous editions would have been for merits.



    If the Sabbat and Cam had lost cities, and those cities had stayed lost, that would have been..better, But no in ride the Anarchs, edition superstars!
    The anarch movement had cities before V5. It had many Freestates through out the world. One of which collapsed to KJ.


    Where is the Anarch civil war? Where is the Cam civil war? Where is the plot defilment of those factions?
    The Camarilla did have a civil war. Its the whole thing you are bitching about! The whole strengthening of the Anarchs! You go on and on about how the Sabbat lost shit to the anarchs(They haven't they lost shit to the Cam and SI btw.. but why base your arguments on facts?) When 2 clans left the cam! That Succession right there.

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  • Taggie
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    Isn't that the Anarchs and Camarilla splitting before starting to kill each other?



    nope. because if that had played out properly, their would be about 150 anarchs globally, at the high end. They got given thousands of extras for...reasons that stretch credulity. An anarch cam war is Cam win gang bangers and jocks with a blood fetish die.
    Last edited by Taggie; 04-14-2020, 07:25 PM.

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  • Taggie
    replied
    Originally posted by Necroticbinder View Post
    I mean. If the anarchs entire stated goal as a sect was to off screen themselves into a mess then yes. That's probably fine. The Sabbat's literal stated goal as a sect was to fight and kill the antediluvians and their servants. So you know what they did? They went off to fight, and kill the antediluvians and their servants. They've gotten quite a bit of screen time explaining what exactly they are doing indirectly since then as well. They aren't gone, they aren't dead. They are off screen DOING things. And when we get a book about them, we will get even more explanation but as it stands, almost every book released has provided more information about the Sabbat.



    1)Again. They aren't. Just because you want to be a special snowflake and shift them goal posts anytime anything clarifies why this view is false. You could have a god damn conviction that says "I will follow the path of honorable accord.". It has all 10 of your arbitrarily decided sins and ethics. But that's not the problem is it? No, the problem is that you'll sit there and argue that it's not the same because even though fundamentally it covers the same core points of: I do not risk falling to the beast if I uphold the beliefs of the path, and I risk falling to the beast if I break the beliefs of the path.

    Lore Sheets are probably the exact opposite of incompatible with paths. They fix the problem of every character and their mother wanting to be a snowflake character who knows Karl Shrekt, Montano and was there during the Anarch revolt by making you focus on one thing. Your biggest complaint that actually holds any value whatsoever (Despite this being a flaw of the path system IMO) is that.you auto lose humanity on diablerie. There is precedent for loresheets to mitigate the loss of humanity for diablerie under certain conditions. Which as a path is an inhumane belief supported by a network of vampires, there's plenty of material for a loresheet to provide other benefits.

    1) I don't want to be a 'special snowflake' I want a morality system that is HARD and granular, is fixed and rigid. It doesn't do any path justice now, including humanity, I want beast I be least beast I become to fucking mean something, it utterly fails at that, you can lie and scream and fanboi that it does, doesn't makle it anything but lies.
    Last edited by Taggie; 04-14-2020, 07:24 PM.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Taggie View Post

    Where is the Anarch civil war? Where is the Cam civil war? Where is the plot defilment of those factions?
    Isn't that the Anarchs and Camarilla splitting before starting to kill each other?

    Leave a comment:

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