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[V5] The Sabbat in V5

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  • In a sense I think the problem is Humanity itself as developed by the game.

    A vampire that is utterly monstrous is a trope strong enough to be a given. Be it merely an antagonist or a playable character, it doesn't change that such villain would be an unavoidable option from the get go. It was maybe the only thing I remember striking me as bad from my first reading of the first edition. How do you do such a villain, now? Is that really it, any vampire that doesn't shy of being a monster becomes a mumbling baboon?

    Using Humanity by RAW without anything to compensate for it I pretty much doubt Kindred society would be really that bad for the simple reason that low Humanity is far more dangerous to Vampires than to mortals. I mean, really, would you kill people if you knew the tangible benefits of being a good person and degenerating could really cause you that level of mental damage? I don't doubt someone would be that dumb, but PCs aside, how many would?


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    • I think Humanity in V5 is different from both previous editions and Requiem, right ? Because I feel in Requiem it does work. I can totally picture a Cruàc master (five dot, thus caped forever at Humanity 5 max) being at a 2/3 level and thus absolutely monstrous and cold to most, inflicting horrible pain rituals on the acolytes and their victims alike... but also having still that nugget of "good" in her, being able to just never hurt a child because "that'd be going too far, the Crone loves all her children" or something.

      Same for any of the other four Covenants and I think the Sabbat would work better if it was kind of the same. Yes your fanatical Sabbat warrior will stop at nothing to defeat the Antediluvians and he throws his Humanity to the Beast to betetr resist its lure... But there is still something inherently human in it, some moments, here and there where the monster is shed away, for a time. Those moments of peace where the Vampire ponders his choices, where they led him and where they'll lead him the next night. And then he reasses his principles. Not because he can ignore his Humanity but by embracing it : so what if he's a monster ? There is far worse out there and he fight it.

      I get that a lot of Sabbat players don't want to be burdened by Humanity and I get that WW believes that Paths allowed the Sabbat to essentially hack the game as they felt it ought to be played... but I think there is a middle road somewhere, where yes, Sabbat players have to deal with Humanity in some way and don't get to just ignore it and its loss but where they can still be real Sabbat.

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      • Originally posted by Ur-Than View Post
        I think Humanity in V5 is different from both previous editions and Requiem, right ? Because I feel in Requiem it does work.
        Since 2nd edition it sure does. Not only because of the revisions in its tenets and overall meaning, but the rule to take up to three "sins" and inure yourself to them by taking on some strangeness goes a long way to heavily broaden your options of character concepts, including truly monstrous villains, without any need to ignore it as either rule or theme. If I had to point a direction for the Paths to go I'd say it is that rule.

        But the greater problem here are VtM's previous editions, since the V5 rules for Humanity are really good, too, way more versatile.


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        • Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post

          Wait, what? Are you saying there won't be a version of Feral Heart in this edition?

          I highly doubt "Forsaken" means "there will be no version": it means "renegade, traitorous, heretic". I'm fairly curious of seeing why such a thing happened.

          I really didn't have a clue about the Path of the Sun, I must say I'm a bit intrigued by the rational behind it, it completely subverts traditional Sabbat thinking while being clearly a logical derivation of their vampiric suprematist ideas.

          After all, why shouldn't Thin Blooded daywalkers with sorcerous powers and no Beast not think of themselves as superior to other Vampires? They may be physically stronger than them, but so were Mammuths or Neanderthals compared to Sapiens, and that didn't help.

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          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            Eh, I think you were overly harsh on the Path of Caine. While it was overly focused on diablerie, it always was the Path of Blood lite.

            I am more surprised the Path of the Beast is out than anything else as you'd think they'd be all down with the Near Dark Texas Chainsaw Massacre Sabbat.

            Death and Soul is also bound to still be scholarly.

            I would say traditional Path of Caine - Noddist - guys and gals are now the bulk of the Church of Caine.

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            • Hey folks,

              The back of the latest issue of the VAMPIRE: THE MASQUERADE comic has some interesting news about Werewolves in the V5 era.



              Some samples of the text:

              The Apocalypse has come and gone and we live in its aftermath. The Garou among us, dying out like their mother. That is the world itself is dying--these are the times of the Malady, of the world's warming and the waters rising.
              A symbol of the Malady, Gaia's Howl, reverberated among the wilds and the spirit-places and even in the cities of humans as the Malady fouled the Earth. It has been perceptible by the Garou ever since and werewolves can see, hear, taste, and small, and even its waning pulse.
              ...insisting that the Apocalypse is yet to come and will be a glorious battle, or that the Garou have already won it!
              Until recently, a fragile unity bonded the tribes but that unity has been broken. The Garou Nation is shattered and the very Litany it once upheld is itself in question. What use are pacts and promises when the Mother existed to protect breathes her last.
              One of the tribes has abandoned the others entirely, so convinced are they of the truth of their cause and the inaction of the other werewolves. Another tribe has lost faith in the Garou and has withdrawn to seek other allies in the fight against Gaia's foes. Now, the only grasp a werewolf can trust is their own pack.
              Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-22-2021, 07:50 PM.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • ......bugger

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                • Fuck...so BNS + Forsaken....I wish people that actually liked WtA were the ones working on it...

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                  • It's very exciting. I wonder if the Get are the "Pure" equivalent.

                    Also, I am glad the Apocalypse is over.

                    Woot! VICTORY!

                    Now what?


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • Originally posted by Damian May View Post
                      Fuck...so BNS + Forsaken....I wish people that actually liked WtA were the ones working on it...
                      As much as I agree, I personally think WtA is the most dated in terms of central concept. In the 90's people thought ecology was about saving nature. Nowadays most people agree that it is about saving our own skins. In the 90's radiation seemed to be the ultimate ecological evil. Today we know we're actually the single animal more sensitive to it and Chernobyl's forests basically braced nuclear fallout better than they braced our presence.

                      On top of that, seriously, Garou society constantly breathing on your neck asking if you're fighting the Wyrm sucks! It is a good story element once in a while, not all the frigging time.

                      So to me it actually seems it won't depart enough from previous editions. The same way that V5 didn't. It will go halfway and stop, just taking care of becoming more CoD because they may believe CoD players will switch to 5th ed that way?

                      My wish is that the abandoning tribe is the Red Talons, my bet is the same as everyone's else, the Get. Because why have just mutants and Cthulhu as enemies when you can have Nazis? Only better if they bring the CyberDogs with them, so we can have Mecha Hitler.

                      Well, let's wait and see...


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                      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                        Hey folks,

                        The back of the latest issue of the VAMPIRE: THE MASQUERADE comic has some interesting news about Werewolves in the V5 era.



                        Some samples of the text:

                        Oh man, I'm already loving it. If it was just a rewriting of W20/4 I would be disappointed. But this seems like a good shake up. I'm imagining politics (micro and macro) are gonna get even more interesting, get even more dynamic in the place-to-place struggles. I'll be rooting for it big time, and will want not only to storytell but to play it as well.
                        Thanks for the exposition of this, CT.


                        Strange... When coincidence seems too convenient, I prefer to call it fate.

                        -Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain d=

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                        • monteparnas Apocalypse it's over because figthing for nature it's dated, and figthing the Wyrm sucks? ... I have no words. And I really don't think it's my place to speak, I'm not exactly a Werewolf fan.

                          But I AM curious. I believe this it's going to be profussely explored and detailed when the time comes, by the people that actually plays that game.
                          Last edited by Aleph; 09-22-2021, 10:33 PM.

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                          • Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                            monteparnas Apocalypse it's over because figthing for nature it's dated, and figthing the Wyrm sucks? ... I have no words. And I really don't think it's my place to speak, I'm not exactly a Werewolf fan.

                            But I AM curious. I believe this it's going to be profussely explored and detailed when the time comes, by the people that actually cares.

                            I have to say that I'm hardly surprised, given how 5th ed opperates...What's next?, Mages don't use dynamic magick anymore because that enhances the sense of "hopelesness inside a more static reality", or something

                            And then you want to play with the Sabbat in V5...c'mon.
                            Eh....

                            Mage already did that. I mean, Revised was, "The Ascension War is silly! Why do you care about fighting fascists in spaceships around Jupiter when you could be feeding the homeless!"


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • Originally posted by Ur-Than View Post
                              I think Humanity in V5 is different from both previous editions and Requiem, right ? Because I feel in Requiem it does work. I can totally picture a Cruàc master (five dot, thus caped forever at Humanity 5 max) being at a 2/3 level and thus absolutely monstrous and cold to most, inflicting horrible pain rituals on the acolytes and their victims alike... but also having still that nugget of "good" in her, being able to just never hurt a child because "that'd be going too far, the Crone loves all her children" or something.

                              Same for any of the other four Covenants and I think the Sabbat would work better if it was kind of the same. Yes your fanatical Sabbat warrior will stop at nothing to defeat the Antediluvians and he throws his Humanity to the Beast to betetr resist its lure... But there is still something inherently human in it, some moments, here and there where the monster is shed away, for a time. Those moments of peace where the Vampire ponders his choices, where they led him and where they'll lead him the next night. And then he reasses his principles. Not because he can ignore his Humanity but by embracing it : so what if he's a monster ? There is far worse out there and he fight it.

                              I get that a lot of Sabbat players don't want to be burdened by Humanity and I get that WW believes that Paths allowed the Sabbat to essentially hack the game as they felt it ought to be played... but I think there is a middle road somewhere, where yes, Sabbat players have to deal with Humanity in some way and don't get to just ignore it and its loss but where they can still be real Sabbat.
                              That defeats the point of the Sabbat, and what makes them different from Anarchs and Cam they don't care about humanity, that's the attraction, they are using totally different ideologies to hold the beast back. Having to be on humanity was one of my biggest gripes with requiem, and why I never played more than a few games.

                              You cannot be on Humanity and be Real Sabbat, that's like being an alcoholic t-totaler. Or yet another mindless anarch piece of filth.l, or even worse, one of the civil rights heros turned into twisted caricatures and shat upon as Anarchs.
                              Last edited by Taggie; 09-22-2021, 10:43 PM.

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                              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                Eh....

                                Mage already did that. I mean, Revised was, "The Ascension War is silly! Why do you care about fighting fascists in spaceships around Jupiter when you could be feeding the homeless!"
                                A) Because Space Fascists aren’t going to keep their fascist ideas confined to the orbit of Jupiter. Better to fight them where there are no innocents to be endangered.

                                B) Because if you take out the Space Fascists of Jupiter they won’t apply their Nega-Rays to your Quantum Food Replicator that will end all world hunger everywhere.

                                C) Because spaceships! Jupiter!! Space Fascists!!!

                                If you have to even ask that question then I feel you fundamentally misunderstand the draw and lasting appeal of Mage the Ascension that I’ve shared with dozens upon dozens of players over the decades.

                                Honestly, the only issue with Mage the Ascension is that people keep trying to drag it down into the World of Darkness when it really belongs in its own sphere… the Dark Fantastic if you will.

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