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[V5] The Sabbat in V5

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  • elmerg
    replied
    Originally posted by Taggie View Post

    Where is the Anarch civil war? Where is the Cam civil war? Where is the plot defilment of those factions?
    I mean, the Sabbat had had 3 civil wars in their history as written, all because their structure is schizophrenic. It's not 'plot defilement' when THREE of the major defining history events of that sect are 'we had a fucking civil war'. Plus, with the focus on factionalization, faction conflicts and the way the Sabbat is run, wars are a logcal outcome of how the factions fight, especially if one faction garners much more temporal power than the others.

    But, to answer your question:
    * Anarchs are historically too small (and pre-V5, largely part of the Camarilla) to have a 'civil war' on the scale of what the Sabbat has. But in prior editions and current edition, there's tons of talk of Anarch violence on other Anarchs, which is an impetus for the Free States and the Barony system. It just was never called a 'civil war' because the Anarchs don't have a centralized form of government or rulership to try to split. Unlike the Sabbat and their factional conflicts.

    * On the reverse side, the Camarilla controls things, with a 'guiding hand.' There have been conflicts, infighting, etc. but the Camarilla's structure, as a whole, doesn't really ALLOW for a civil war to happen, not with the top-down control that the Camarilla has in place.

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  • Necroticbinder
    replied
    Originally posted by Taggie View Post


    The Anarchs remained Anarchs afterwards, they didn't lose huge numbers of members and have a collective round of total idiocy. I did like how the Sabbat lost New York however, and Washington was...ok. a bit weirdly handled and timey whimey ball, but, ok, sure an Autarkis ancient calling itself an Anarch Baron, sure.

    I didn't like how the Kuei-Jin where handled, mostly, they could have been something great, but it was a mix of didn't do the research and not sure what they are actually for, lead to them kind being this...thing..that does..stuff? You can pull some great stories out of the wreckage but boy it takes work.

    The Free States falling to SOMEONE made sense, they had all the problems that pulled down New York and then some, disjointed, fractured loyalties and conflicting goals on a scale that made unifying against the external threat near impossible..check (The Cam by the way should have that as their 'thing' hanging together in adversity [as much as leeches ever do], across subfaction lines the best of the sects, just an imho and aside). Location and resources vital to someone willing to take them...also check. That looks like a war target waiting to fall, would have been better to have it as a pillar conflict of some linked chronicles, and investigate and develop the fallout of one of series of big sect level field engagements of the late 90s, but thems the breaks.

    Honestly. of the Sabbat had lost a war, that I could parse, I would want the story of how, but sure, it could happen. This collective Tottenritt into the middle east..not so much, especially not while having vast sections split off to join other sects, would you have been happy if 40% of the anarchs went cam, taking the remaining scraps of anarch territory, and most of the wealth with them, between editions with hand waved explanations? while the rest of the anarchs off screened themselves into a mess that sounds like a caricature of the sect you liked?
    I mean. If the anarchs entire stated goal as a sect was to off screen themselves into a mess then yes. That's probably fine. The Sabbat's literal stated goal as a sect was to fight and kill the antediluvians and their servants. So you know what they did? They went off to fight, and kill the antediluvians and their servants. They've gotten quite a bit of screen time explaining what exactly they are doing indirectly since then as well. They aren't gone, they aren't dead. They are off screen DOING things. And when we get a book about them, we will get even more explanation but as it stands, almost every book released has provided more information about the Sabbat.

    What we have so far is a system of Humanity and lore sheets that is totally incompatible with paths, (Seriously Lore sheets are flat awful, hate those things so much)
    Again. They aren't. Just because you want to be a special snowflake and shift them goal posts anytime anything clarifies why this view is false. You could have a god damn conviction that says "I will follow the path of honorable accord.". It has all 10 of your arbitrarily decided sins and ethics. But that's not the problem is it? No, the problem is that you'll sit there and argue that it's not the same because even though fundamentally it covers the same core points of: I do not risk falling to the beast if I uphold the beliefs of the path, and I risk falling to the beast if I break the beliefs of the path.

    Lore Sheets are probably the exact opposite of incompatible with paths. They fix the problem of every character and their mother wanting to be a snowflake character who knows Karl Shrekt, Montano and was there during the Anarch revolt by making you focus on one thing. Your biggest complaint that actually holds any value whatsoever (Despite this being a flaw of the path system IMO) is that.you auto lose humanity on diablerie. There is precedent for loresheets to mitigate the loss of humanity for diablerie under certain conditions. Which as a path is an inhumane belief supported by a network of vampires, there's plenty of material for a loresheet to provide other benefits.

    Leave a comment:


  • Taggie
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    What was your opinion when they wiped out the Anarch Free States to make the Kuei-Jin look cool? I assume you objected and were angered by the defilement of a faction.


    The Anarchs remained Anarchs afterwards, they didn't lose huge numbers of members and have a collective round of total idiocy. I did like how the Sabbat lost New York however, and Washington was...ok. a bit weirdly handled and timey whimey ball, but, ok, sure an Autarkis ancient calling itself an Anarch Baron, sure.

    I didn't like how the Kuei-Jin where handled, mostly, they could have been something great, but it was a mix of didn't do the research and not sure what they are actually for, lead to them kind being this...thing..that does..stuff? You can pull some great stories out of the wreckage but boy it takes work.

    The Free States falling to SOMEONE made sense, they had all the problems that pulled down New York and then some, disjointed, fractured loyalties and conflicting goals on a scale that made unifying against the external threat near impossible..check (The Cam by the way should have that as their 'thing' hanging together in adversity [as much as leeches ever do], across subfaction lines the best of the sects, just an imho and aside). Location and resources vital to someone willing to take them...also check. That looks like a war target waiting to fall, would have been better to have it as a pillar conflict of some linked chronicles, and investigate and develop the fallout of one of series of big sect level field engagements of the late 90s, but thems the breaks.

    Honestly. of the Sabbat had lost a war, that I could parse, I would want the story of how, but sure, it could happen. This collective Tottenritt into the middle east..not so much, especially not while having vast sections split off to join other sects, would you have been happy if 40% of the anarchs went cam, taking the remaining scraps of anarch territory, and most of the wealth with them, between editions with hand waved explanations? while the rest of the anarchs off screened themselves into a mess that sounds like a caricature of the sect you liked?

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Taggie View Post

    Where is the Anarch civil war? Where is the Cam civil war? Where is the plot defilment of those factions?
    What was your opinion when they wiped out the Anarch Free States to make the Kuei-Jin look cool? I assume you objected and were angered by the defilement of a faction.


    Leave a comment:


  • Taggie
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    '
    You're just claiming any thing that comes out in v5 "doesn't count" like the no true scotsman argument. We don't have a system for them since they aren't out yet. We have references to them being scary and powerful. They are mysterious and no longer "the only place where people are preaching wierd vampire morality"

    We know they've lost some cities. We know the camarilla has lost some cities. We know going into the gap another Sabbat Civil war was going ot happen/happened. Each time the Sabbat has had a Civil war its come back as a new beast with some pieces of the old.


    That the SI kicked everyone in the face is good! The masquerade is the CENTRAL point of Vampire. Its supposed to be as meaningful to vampire existance as The Apocalypse is to werewolves, as Ascension is to Mages, as the Dreaming is to changelings.. any other game would accept that its defining points SHOULD MATTER.

    But not vampire. Humans shouldn't be scary.(Even if Hunters Hunted 2 had cities being lost to Gangs..... but hey...) its completely out of left field for vampires to be something other than power fantasies right? Lets fix that for V6 shall we? "Vampire: the power Fantasy"


    I don't have a problem with humans being scary, for the record, and don't recall arguing they shouldn't be.

    What we have so far is a system of Humanity and lore sheets that is totally incompatible with paths, (Seriously Lore sheets are flat awful, hate those things so much)

    If the Sabbat and Cam had lost cities, and those cities had stayed lost, that would have been..better, But no in ride the Anarchs, edition superstars!


    Where is the Anarch civil war? Where is the Cam civil war? Where is the plot defilment of those factions?
    Last edited by Taggie; 04-14-2020, 03:20 PM.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

    no it's "turns to the sabbat to get out of helena's control"

    we don't know why she turned to infernalism, or even if she turned at all,
    Shaitan is Decani, and unlike other demons Decani don't need "willing" servants, they can just force it

    (not that it really makes a difference in the subject at hand, but what makes a difference is that...we don't know what her motivations are,
    which is sad cause I always wanted to know...and at this rate we never will)
    I have the theory the Camarilla took over Mexico City because White Wolf guessed that Mexican fans of the game didn't like their capital city being treated as Mordor.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Taggie View Post

    Explain please. We have a system that doesn't support them and lore that is salvaging them for parts while having the bits they don't want act like complete idiot's.
    '
    You're just claiming any thing that comes out in v5 "doesn't count" like the no true scotsman argument. We don't have a system for them since they aren't out yet. We have references to them being scary and powerful. They are mysterious and no longer "the only place where people are preaching wierd vampire morality"

    We know they've lost some cities. We know the camarilla has lost some cities. We know going into the gap another Sabbat Civil war was going ot happen/happened. Each time the Sabbat has had a Civil war its come back as a new beast with some pieces of the old.


    That the SI kicked everyone in the face is good! The masquerade is the CENTRAL point of Vampire. Its supposed to be as meaningful to vampire existance as The Apocalypse is to werewolves, as Ascension is to Mages, as the Dreaming is to changelings.. any other game would accept that its defining points SHOULD MATTER.

    But not vampire. Humans shouldn't be scary.(Even if Hunters Hunted 2 had cities being lost to Gangs..... but hey...) its completely out of left field for vampires to be something other than power fantasies right? Lets fix that for V6 shall we? "Vampire: the power Fantasy"

    Leave a comment:


  • Pleiades
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    I think her motivation basically amounted to, "Turns to Infernalism and the Sabbat to get out of Helena's control. Gets enslaved to a different 4th Generation because that's vampire unlife. You change who holds your leash and the kind of cage you inhabit but never really gain freedom."
    no it's "turns to the sabbat to get out of helena's control"

    we don't know why she turned to infernalism, or even if she turned at all,
    Shaitan is Decani, and unlike other demons Decani don't need "willing" servants, they can just force it

    (not that it really makes a difference in the subject at hand, but what makes a difference is that...we don't know what her motivations are,
    which is sad cause I always wanted to know...and at this rate we never will)
    Last edited by Pleiades; 04-14-2020, 02:18 PM.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
    and what does she believe in exactly?
    she was an infernalist, but afaik, her motivations were never detailed (unless they were in BJD?)
    I think her motivation basically amounted to, "Turns to Infernalism and the Sabbat to get out of Helena's control. Gets enslaved to a different 4th Generation because that's vampire unlife. You change who holds your leash and the kind of cage you inhabit but never really gain freedom."

    Leave a comment:


  • Spencer from The Hills
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    You mean Lucita's personality of being an impossible to oppress or control woman raging against her sire? A sire who effectively helped FOUND the Sabbat and its entire culture? A woman who spent centuries away from any sect because she refused to conform?

    That woman certainly DOES look like someone who would never be an Anarch.
    Lucita doesn't need Anarchs because she's already so difficult to oppress. She's only going to join them to use them or help them and from what I know of her, she isn't inclined towards either. The only kindred who threaten her now are ancients and fighting them is what the Sabbat is theoretically for.
    Last edited by Spencer from The Hills; 04-14-2020, 02:07 PM.

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  • elmerg
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    I hope Lucita joins the Anarchs so my vote for head of the Sabbat is Vykos.

    ither that or just make Jalan the Regent of the Sabbat. He's disappeared and probably Beckoned but it's not like that makes him any different from any other Gehenna Crusader.
    The V5 core book makes it pretty clear he's dead, a casualty of fighting in NYC against the first legs of the Second Inquisition.

    Leave a comment:


  • Val_Nir
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    It's not Anarch bias in this respect. I just think of Lucita as my favorite character and her joining the mainstream Lasombra really sucks out everything interesting about her. She's a rebel and if she's not rebelling she's just another Lasombra Elder.

    Camarilla or Autarkis is fine but her in the Sabbat just makes no goddamn sense.

    Aka your favorite character joining the sect you like the least.

    Sabbat is no longer 'mainstream Lasombra' and we both know it. And also we both know that she joined the sect not to be on board with her main clan. Do you recall her letter from the end of Clan Lasombra novel? Her motivation to join the sect after killing one of it's Founders?

    By the way, I forgot your point from the previous post. The point I'd like to disprove as loudly as possible. People think about Sabbat being a child of solely Moncada and other Lasombra's catholic dudes. Guess what, nope. They added the power structure, a part of ideology, and titles; what is Sabbat culture that attracts so many? It's the pack. The horizontal connections playing as important a role as vertical. It's Vaulderie. Do you recall who invented the post-Humanity camaraderie which stems from Vaulderie, and culture of the Sabbat? It was not Moncada.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pleiades
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    That woman certainly DOES look like someone who would never be an Anarch.
    or a person tired of being an Anarch, you know...like she was tired of it in revised?

    Yeah, I was highlighting one Regent believed the exact opposite and was a pawn of the Antediluvians.
    and what does she believe in exactly?
    she was an infernalist, but afaik, her motivations were never detailed (unless they were in BJD?)

    what is certain is that she and her followers (one of which is one of the candidates for regency I mentioned earlier) were all about restabilizing the sabbat after the civil war and put Gorchist's reforms in motion,
    her administration was a continuation of Gorchist's administration with a few changes (Black Hand got more irritating)

    either way, doesn't change my point,
    the leaders of the sabbat do believe in their bullshit and they have scheduled meetings to have nerdy debates about noddism...I don't see how Galbraith or whoever else doesn't care about the cause changes the fact that the leaders of the sabbat do believe in their bullshit and have scheduled meetings to have nerdy debates about noddism
    Last edited by Pleiades; 04-14-2020, 12:47 PM.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Val_Nir View Post
    Your Anarch bias is getting out of control, my friend; that's too much already. Anarchs are already the superstars of this edition, at least at the start of the edition anyway (remember, ever edition lasts around 7-8 years).

    We both know what Lucita looks for in Sabbat and why she enjoyed being a part of it in BJD. You just don't want to accept t it because you don't like Sabbat and like the other, more "normie" camp.

    Again, sects are not football teams.
    It's not Anarch bias in this respect. I just think of Lucita as my favorite character and her joining the mainstream Lasombra really sucks out everything interesting about her. She's a rebel and if she's not rebelling she's just another Lasombra Elder.

    Camarilla or Autarkis is fine but her in the Sabbat just makes no goddamn sense.

    Leave a comment:


  • Val_Nir
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    You mean Lucita's personality of being an impossible to oppress or control woman raging against her sire? A sire who effectively helped FOUND the Sabbat and its entire culture? A woman who spent centuries away from any sect because she refused to conform?

    That woman certainly DOES look like someone who would never be an Anarch.
    Your Anarch bias is getting out of control, my friend; that's too much already. Anarchs are already the superstars of this edition, at least at the start of the edition anyway (remember, ever edition lasts around 7-8 years).

    We both know what Lucita looks for in Sabbat and why she enjoyed being a part of it in BJD. You just don't want to accept t it because you don't like Sabbat and like the other, more "normie" camp.

    Again, sects are not football teams.

    Leave a comment:

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