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[V5] The Sabbat in V5

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  • Originally posted by Chris24601 View Post
    A) Because Space Fascists aren’t going to keep their fascist ideas confined to the orbit of Jupiter. Better to fight them where there are no innocents to be endangered.

    B) Because if you take out the Space Fascists of Jupiter they won’t apply their Nega-Rays to your Quantum Food Replicator that will end all world hunger everywhere.

    C) Because spaceships! Jupiter!! Space Fascists!!!

    If you have to even ask that question then I feel you fundamentally misunderstand the draw and lasting appeal of Mage the Ascension that I’ve shared with dozens upon dozens of players over the decades.

    Honestly, the only issue with Mage the Ascension is that people keep trying to drag it down into the World of Darkness when it really belongs in its own sphere… the Dark Fantastic if you will.
    He was commenting on what revised did, the Avatar Storm cutting off the Umbra etc. They had already tried to trap Mage on Earth...

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    • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

      That defeats the point of the Sabbat, and what makes them different from Anarchs and Cam they don't care about humanity, that's the attraction, they are using totally different ideologies to hold the beast back. Having to be on humanity was one of my biggest gripes with requiem, and why I never played more than a few games.

      You cannot be on Humanity and be Real Sabbat, that's like being an alcoholic t-totaler.
      I think we're we've always disagreed is not that the Sabbat should be on Paths but how hard that should be. I always felt the original 2nd Edition Sabbat idea that, "dump them in a grave and let them crawl out" was enough to get someone off the Road of Humanity. I think Revised's take that you have to first lower down someone's Humanity to 1-3 first then slowly educate them back up in an entirely new values system is much more thematic. However, this should be incredibly HARD and with much backsliding.

      Furthermore, I also think that at some point you'll have to choose between your Path and the Sabbat as they aren't going to always align 1:1 even when you're on the Path of Honorable Accord (such as obeying an incredibly corrupt Sabbat elders).

      So most Sabbat will be low humanity versus Paths because while they've forsaken humanity, emnbracing a new way is hard.


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      • Originally posted by Chris24601 View Post
        A) Because Space Fascists aren’t going to keep their fascist ideas confined to the orbit of Jupiter. Better to fight them where there are no innocents to be endangered.

        B) Because if you take out the Space Fascists of Jupiter they won’t apply their Nega-Rays to your Quantum Food Replicator that will end all world hunger everywhere.

        C) Because spaceships! Jupiter!! Space Fascists!!!

        If you have to even ask that question then I feel you fundamentally misunderstand the draw and lasting appeal of Mage the Ascension that I’ve shared with dozens upon dozens of players over the decades.

        Honestly, the only issue with Mage the Ascension is that people keep trying to drag it down into the World of Darkness when it really belongs in its own sphere… the Dark Fantastic if you will.
        Yep. That was my view on the subject.

        I play Sons of Ether to build time machines and punch Nazis, not be brood and angst about how magitech can't solve the world's problems.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          I think we're we've always disagreed is not that the Sabbat should be on Paths but how hard that should be. I always felt the original 2nd Edition Sabbat idea that, "dump them in a grave and let them crawl out" was enough to get someone off the Road of Humanity. I think Revised's take that you have to first lower down someone's Humanity to 1-3 first then slowly educate them back up in an entirely new values system is much more thematic. However, this should be incredibly HARD and with much backsliding.

          Furthermore, I also think that at some point you'll have to choose between your Path and the Sabbat as they aren't going to always align 1:1 even when you're on the Path of Honorable Accord (such as obeying an incredibly corrupt Sabbat elders).

          So most Sabbat will be low humanity versus Paths because while they've forsaken humanity, emnbracing a new way is hard.
          And the ones on humanity will remain shovel heads, until they walk a path they can't be True Sabbat

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          • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

            And the ones on humanity will remain shovel heads, until they walk a path they can't be True Sabbat
            Unless they win a monomancy or diablerize their way to power.

            No one is waving a Soulscope over you.

            They only know if you're not on a path when you become a Wight.




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            • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

              He was commenting on what revised did, the Avatar Storm cutting off the Umbra etc. They had already tried to trap Mage on Earth...
              Yup. And it sucked and would suck just as much if someone completely undermined the core premises of any other property. Think Ben Reilly Spider-Man, think just about every movie universe reboot in the last decade compared to the originals.

              To their credit, they also started to reverse course almost immediately and started introducing different methods around the Avatar Storm. M20 thankfully leaned much more into 2e as it’s basis with just enough detail on how to do magick in the style of Revised, but even its agnostic setting default seemed to based on the idea that the events of Revised had died down and everything returned to a more 2e setup.

              But it still really needs to be taken as an object lesson of how not to do a reboot. For example, as much as I personally dislike V5’s direction and closing down of certain playstyles, I can still acknowledge that it’s personal horror focus is something V1 had as an initial premise and something the other editions tried in various ways to reframe. One can argue the execution, but at least the intent is there.

              The bits about W5 though scream MageRev type changes of focus instead of an attempt to update the focus of the Wyrm’s banality onto more modern sensibilities (ex. GMO foods, the banality of suburban sprawl, bathing our environment in cellular/wifi, addiction to smart devices, increasing separation from the natural world) and how the banes and other other spirits have evolved… but are still things that transform into things a Garou in Crinos can fight.

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              • Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                monteparnas Apocalypse it's over because figthing for nature it's dated, and figthing the Wyrm sucks? ... I have no words. And I really don't think it's my place to speak, I'm not exactly a Werewolf fan.
                It isn't what I said, you're stretching quite a bit.

                First of all, fighting for nature definitely isn't dated, quite the opposite. But the setting came from assumptions that are pretty much dated. Global warming is a fact, as is climate change, but Gaia pretty much won't die because of that. WE will. Radiation won't kill or mutate all life, it will kill or mutate US. Every species currently on the face of Earth is going to face Hell and it definitely is our fault, but a lot of those species will adapt with time. The average suffering will be less than what we're going to deal with, especially considering that our part in it will diminish considerably either by us learning the lesson or us dying. But those are not the assumptions of the game.

                That's all. I don't think that fighting for nature is dated, I think that WtA's take on the fight for nature is dated.

                And fighting the Wyrm all the frigging time and talk about that all the time sucks. A lot. Because if you don't play Werewolf you don't know how much the books and many players talk about the same theme all the time. A game need other things for the players to do and other stores for the ST to tell. And WtA does have them. But the fight against the Wyrm too frequently takes so much space and focus that doing anything else is hard, and the Garou society frequently seems to press on for you to put other stuff down and go fight. It isn't the Jyhad or the Ascension War. The Garou aren't a country at war. They're an army at war. It makes sense, but is very limited for story themes.
                Last edited by monteparnas; 09-23-2021, 12:25 AM. Reason: typo


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                • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                  That defeats the point of the Sabbat, and what makes them different from Anarchs and Cam they don't care about humanity, that's the attraction, they are using totally different ideologies to hold the beast back. Having to be on humanity was one of my biggest gripes with requiem, and why I never played more than a few games.

                  You cannot be on Humanity and be Real Sabbat, that's like being an alcoholic t-totaler. Or yet another mindless anarch piece of filth.l, or even worse, one of the civil rights heros turned into twisted caricatures and shat upon as Anarchs.
                  Then the Sabbat is indeed a problem for the core of the game of Vampire. What's the point of being an horror game if you can totally ignore the horror part ? It'd as if in Call of Cthulu you could just have some plyers ignoring the whole alient horror of it all. And as I said, the Paths never seemed inhumans to me. They are merely a narrowing of the definition of human. Yes, even the Path of Beasts, since each and everyone of them could be followed by a human in the end.

                  And I say that as someone who wants the Sabbat to be playable, but not at the cost of the whole theme of the game.

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                  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                    Hey folks,

                    One of the tribes has abandoned the others entirely, so convinced are they of the truth of their cause and the inaction of the other werewolves. Another tribe has lost faith in the Garou and has withdrawn to seek other allies in the fight against Gaia's foes. Now, the only grasp a werewolf can trust is their own pack.
                    I think it's pretty sad people are thinking one of these are going to be the GoF, the most Garou Garou to have ever Garou'd, it just shows how devastated they are by V5. From a purely in universe perspective, the likeliest answers are the RT, CoG, GW... perhaps the wendigo or BG


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                    • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                      I think it's pretty sad people are thinking one of these are going to be the GoF, the most Garou Garou to have ever Garou'd, it just shows how devastated they are by V5. From a purely in universe perspective, the likeliest answers are the RT, CoG, GW... perhaps the wendigo or BG
                      But that's precisely it, at least for me. Which tribe have a particular view of their cause that can make them feel fed up with the rest of the Nation because they don't agree?

                      Actually a good chunk of them. The Get isn't one of my favorites despite vikings, but it wouldn't make a lot of sense. Yet, they're my bet.


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                      • Well, the most logic options would be Red Talons abandoning the Nation in extremism and Stargazers or Children of Gaia searching for new alliances, I suppose.

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                        • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                          I think it's pretty sad people are thinking one of these are going to be the GoF, the most Garou Garou to have ever Garou'd, it just shows how devastated they are by V5. From a purely in universe perspective, the likeliest answers are the RT, CoG, GW... perhaps the wendigo or BG
                          You act like that logic doesn't follow.

                          "We're doing our shit right. Why isn't everyone else?"

                          Ergo: "Fuck it, we'll go it alone."


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                          • I always liked a lot of sabbat being on humanity and just faking it until they make it. It provided a lot of interesting experiences and plot points , I recall a salubri anti everyone assumed was on honorable accord who snapped after it was made clear the kids were getting shovelheaded as well. The player delivered the line so well.

                            " NO MORE, I AM SICK OF YOU AND THE POINTLESS ENDLESS EVIL BULLSHIT!"
                            He rattled this speech out while he decapitated a dumbfounded tzimisce eldar.
                            He then went Blade/punisher/omar on the sects. Basically cost the siege.

                            Good times

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                            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                              Unless they win a monomancy or diablerize their way to power.

                              No one is waving a Soulscope over you.

                              They only know if you're not on a path when you become a Wight.



                              kind of true, depends on whether Paths still get Auras really, and even then those only kick in at a mid-high ratings.

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                              • Originally posted by Ur-Than View Post

                                Then the Sabbat is indeed a problem for the core of the game of Vampire. What's the point of being an horror game if you can totally ignore the horror part ? It'd as if in Call of Cthulu you could just have some plyers ignoring the whole alient horror of it all. And as I said, the Paths never seemed inhumans to me. They are merely a narrowing of the definition of human. Yes, even the Path of Beasts, since each and everyone of them could be followed by a human in the end.

                                And I say that as someone who wants the Sabbat to be playable, but not at the cost of the whole theme of the game.

                                To be fair, humanity was never, from a game design perspective, a core part of the game.

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